I just interviewed my friend Dave Snider
he recently sold his company ninja
outreach which was a
software-as-a-service and you may have
heard of it and I've talked about it a
couple times
it's influencer outreach software and
it's out there with its new owners but
the cool thing is back in the day like
four years ago or so Dave and I were in
a mastermind group and we sort of came
up around the same time and he went to
work on ninja outreach and I kept
working on Amazon affiliate sites and
niche site project and that sort of
thing well fast-forward Dave sold his
company and that's what we're talking
about in the interview today we go back
hear about how Dave and his wife started
their corporate careers and realized
that they wanted something a little bit
more and they started traveling they
actually started a travel blog and that
was how Dave got started online he
realized that maybe he was interested in
software and went to pursue that and
Dave and I sort of reminisce about you
know how we knew each other before how
we met initially which is kind of the
classic way that I recommend that people
network within community and build
relationships and then a couple cool
things Dave tells us about some of the
silly blunders and some mistakes that he
made
additionally he lets us know how he
stays motivated and he has a few really
cool projects as he's working on right
now and Dave even you know would love to
talk to some of the folks in the
audience so if you want to reach out the
Dave he lets us know how to do that in
the interview so without further ado
let's hear from Dave Schneider from and
ninja outreach and Dave Schneider dot me
hey what's up Doug Huntington here from
niche site project I'm talking with my
friend Dave Schneider how are you doing
well Doug how are you doing doing
awesome so thanks a lot for joining me
today and for the people that don't know
you can you give us a little bit of an
intro who you are and what you're
working on and then we'll kind of go
into the whole backstory and after that
sure I've been working online for I
don't know about five or six years now I
guess it started I was doing some
traveling that kind of led the digital
nomad and that kind of led to maybe
working a bit more full-time online
mess around with a lot of different
things probably like
no any entrepreneur but my guess my you
know claim to fame although it's not
hardly you know to to famous would be
starting in growing ninja reach which
was a influencer marketing software you
know in the digital marketing space
which I sold this year in March in since
then you know I got married and
basically I've just been relaxing a
little bit cool Congrats by the way I
know you just got married recently so
thanks well let's go back to the
beginning cuz like you and I sort of got
started online around the same time and
it's really cool like our sort of group
of people that we came up with like we
all sort of separated to different
things but everyone did well and it's
you know when did you sell ninja
outreach by the way it was March of this
year 2018 ok cool
so you worked on that for a while you
sold it and but you came from like a lot
of people getting started I know like
Pat Flynn started with like affiliate
marketing and and some smaller sites and
I think like Mark Manson and a couple
other like big names started with like
niche sites essentially so tell us how
you kind of found your way into the
travel area and then that sort of thing
yeah so I'm kind of going back to 2012
and technically even before that but you
have to start somewhere and basically my
you know my now wife and I had agreed
that we wanted to go traveling you know
backpacker style kind of quit her job
save up some money go to Asia and just
kind of go do that for like a year and a
year you know the plan at least I became
to pretty quickly and once we were out
there we decided we we know we wanted to
have a travel blog it was mainly a way
to keep in touch with friends and family
but we also thought in the back of our
minds that maybe we could make a little
bit of money off of it at a minimum we
could maybe review some different
activities and places and that we'd get
discounts and that would help us sort of
prolong our travel budget so a little
did I know that there was a whole world
probably still is of link selling which
is when you basically sell a link on
your own website my guess is your
audience knows exactly why someone would
want to do this so I won't elaborate too
much but basically you buy links on
people's website to get you know the SEO
sort of a throw
and that helps you rank higher in the
ganic search engines for particular
terms so we work with you know companies
like Expedia who wanted to rank for
cheap flights to Miami for example and
we'd have to find ways to include that
in our blog post and that was that was
our first sort of introduction into you
know online marketing so to speak
working you know online where somebody's
kind of paying you and you're doing the
whole thing from your laptop and we did
that for years I mean we did that for
probably like two or so years and it
really became sort of a way for us to
replace our previously full-time incomes
to the extent that we thought you know
why why go back and you know try to get
you know a good job in the corporate
world again why not see what we can kind
of continue from this so once we started
with that mentality that we wanted to be
online entrepreneurs we started thinking
about new business ideas we got in and
you know we did a few things with niche
sites a bit but I was looking for
something that I felt was gonna be more
stable because the link selling business
seemed very you know up and down and
very dependent on Google's algorithm and
where your site's gonna get hit tomorrow
and I was a bit concerned about that so
I started to read and learn more about
software which was sort of a business
model that seemed very attractive
because of the whole monthly recurring
revenue aspect but at the same time was
something I knew very little about but
kind of dove in headfirst and and you
know that led to ninja region well I'll
pause there for now because you know
that's kind of two years there right
yeah I was gonna say so it sounds like
you did that for a couple years and you
and I like met because of my blog in in
your blog so you used to have sort of a
marketing blog is this still out there
at all it is not because I we eventually
minge always consumed it and we just
redirected all the links in traffic and
articles to kind of send the traffic
where it was valuable got it okay and I
was blogging a niche type project but
the reason why I'm bringing this up is I
tell people like if you want to network
with people comment on blogs send a
couple emails and that's literally what
you and I did checked out each other's
blogs like we were writing interesting
things
and eventually you and I were in a
mastermind group with another person for
I don't know at least I can't remember
like six months or maybe more I don't
remember yeah
and eventually we met yeah we've met a
couple of times right like I was passing
through the Boston area and then once
you were coming through Atlanta so yeah
we've hung out a couple times which is
cool I haven't met many people online so
so yeah like comment on blogs cuz that
many people do and then send some emails
and you may develop something like
multi-year long relationship something
like that so cool and I remember when
you were getting started with ninja
outreach and you know I was like I don't
know it sounds so complicated and then
like you went for it right so how did
you get involved initially with ninja
outreach did you I mean you obviously
saw the need because you knew about
guest posting and link building but like
you don't know software so how did you
do it it was tricky one thing was
basically so influencer marketing was
you know how do you work with bloggers
and influencers to kind of you know
build relationships and promote your
brand originally what I was thinking was
you know more like content promotion
because like you said we were blogging
and I was thinking how can we kind of
get our content out there and maybe get
it maybe automatically posted in
different forums and communities and and
you know the upvote sites and things
like that
I started pitching that idea to a couple
other bloggers to see if they might be
interested in it and they said that they
thought it was okay of an idea but that
they were more interested in some sort
of influencer marketing software and I
remember to like very prominent bloggers
had said something like that one was
Brian Dean and the other was Matthew
Barbie and you know though those two
inputs was sort of the impetus to think
about influencer marketing what was
going on in that space it was and still
is like pretty hot and basically there
were some other software at the time
guys like inky bee and buzz stream who
you know most of which are still around
that had a bit of a foothold in the
space but it didn't seem like anybody
was really dominating it so I started
thinking about what that software could
look like what you know what features
should have had and instead of how could
you know maybe I try to make it work
unfortunately I didn't know any coding
and still really don't
that was you know the first big hurdle
and that's you know often the one that
kind of prevents most people from making
the leap in the software and I still
haven't really figured out a good answer
to how to deal with it but I basically
connected with another guy who had a
developer friend and he basically you
know the three of us joined in as kind
of equal partners and we got started
kind of working and there's got n mark
Sam's and and you know I was a podcast
guest on his show and then he had a
friend named Paul and basically you know
that that worked because you know if you
don't have a developer like a co-founder
it becomes really expensive like really
fast so having somebody you know with
equity in the business and stuff like
that you know what was key and basically
you know we started mapping out the MVP
we started trying to get the word out
you know asking people were they happy
with the software that they had
available to them you know trying to
figure out who was using the competitors
and sort of maybe who wasn't the
happiest customer and things like that
and I don't know if it was easier than
than it is now lately I've also you know
done some things with software and I I
feel like maybe four or five years ago
people were a little bit more I don't
know accessible with email and maybe a
little bit more willing to meet and talk
and chat about things maybe they just
hadn't been quite like bombarded as they
have in the last couple of years by a
lot of sales pitches but you know
needless to say we've contacted a lot of
people generated some good phone calls a
little bit of buzz did some blogging and
just kind of little by little started
started growing cool with the
partnership right especially with three
people how did you structure that from
like a business standpoint and did you
know did you meet those guys beforehand
before you started you know transacting
and stuff so yeah so really you know I
mean officially officially we eventually
made it like a c-corporation that was in
America basically in the states in
Delaware which is a common state to kind
of make a corporation and and they are
they're both British I didn't have sort
of easy access per se to meeting them
but we could you know basically all
owned one-third of the company but I
guess sort of unofficially in terms of I
guess like division of labor and things
like that you know mark and I were
marketer
and then girl was decoder his job was
very clear and Mark and I just tried to
split to do's say okay you're gonna you
know you're gonna contact and talk with
these people on the phone I'm gonna
contact you know these people on the
phone and in the early days you know
when this when the business was really
quite small there was more stepping on
each other's toes I'd say just because
it was harder to sort of draw a line in
the sand about who was doing what
because sort of it was a small business
basically I mean it you know it was
never like a large large business but it
was a particularly small business in the
beginning as it grew like that division
of labor became like a more defined and
Mark started running almost purely the
services side of the business and I
started working purely on like the
software side of the business because it
took on a little bit of a services model
like a few years later and he had
certain employees that kind of worked
with him and I had sort of my guys and
in that sense it worked out you know
nicely but basically there was a lot of
I guess trust in sort of faith that we
kind of put into it in terms of look I
don't really know you you don't really
know me but um we seem to share the same
vision here and and you seem like a nice
guy and you know let's let's give it a
shot and I say a lot of people would
probably not recommend that approach
it's probably you know failed more times
than it's worked but I don't know I had
a good feeling about the guys that
seemed alright so so we went with it and
more or less it worked out reasonable I
didn't meet any of them until like three
years into the business even after like
it was you know things were clearly
going okay and things were established I
still just had never really gotten
around to meeting mark never and still
never met Paul eventually he did he did
leave and you know to work on other
things but I did meet Mark you know last
last year so for the first time and yeah
and then not not that long after we
actually ended up selling the business
but basically yeah so again it's sort of
like the the coding thing I'm not sure
you know the probably hurdle number two
is how do I find a co-founder right and
it's another one of those things where I
say unfortunately I maybe kind of lucked
into it it worked out okay I don't know
if it would be like my advice to
somebody else but you know sometimes you
just have to go with those types of you
know opportunities when they present
themselves right yeah in that's super
interesting because I mean I think
you're right a lot more people are
Shing out these days I get a few emails
a week some sort of a pitch so like it
really has to be good for me to even
reply back and not mark it as spam like
to be honest with you so if you can get
like a warm introduction and I mean I
think you demonstrated that with you
know you were a guest on his podcast so
like you came in with some you know
experience you have demonstrated value
as a guest and then you hit it off from
there so that that makes some sense I
was gonna say it's it's interesting
right you're right because I don't think
it's normal for people to be like yeah
you know you just meet someone you talk
a couple times and like you move forward
it's like you're getting married you're
starting to business together and then
like you hope it works out so yeah it's
really pretty amazing were there certain
pieces like especially in the early days
that were like much easier or harder
than you expected oh boy I think in the
in the early days I think everything was
kind of hard and it was just kind of
hard the whole time and I never ever
really good got that easy
I think we found good people you know we
found good employees to kind of help us
and you know mostly like threw up work
and things like that you know through
freelancer marketplaces and we'd kind of
work with them and then if things would
go well and we kind of transition them
into more of like a full-time role and
basically you know these these good
employees were just huge assets that
really helped the company kind of grow
because I mean oh yeah again pretty much
anybody that's worked online it's
probably dealt with some freelancers
that just kind of didn't pan out and
just maybe would disappoint and they got
burned a little bit and then some people
you know that really just say well
that's it I'm done I'm never working
with outsourced labor again and I think
that's kind of you know probably a
mistake but we had a couple of guys that
we you know we worked with in the
beginning and they stayed with us like
the whole three years for three four
years that we ran the company which is
fairly uncommon you know when you think
about like outsourced labor usually
people like they leave in like six
months or something so I think that you
know being able to find good help that
was you know affordable for us you know
really helped us and then you know
because often what we do is we would put
a lot of work into maybe training people
and kind of getting them up to speed we
would get them kind of
you know pretty good rates because they
didn't have a lot of experience but they
had like the right attitude and we teach
them kind of the marketing that they
needed to know and that we needed from
them and then by the end of it you know
one two years later I mean the people
were like all stars but but we were
paying like probably a lot less than
them then maybe other companies wouldn't
I think that was really really helpful
for us but we had invested a lot of time
you know it wasn't like you know there
was a give-and-take there so I think
that you know that was one thing for
sure cool and do you have any tips for
people like hiring on up work for
example maybe application process
interviewing and you know the training
piece yeah I mean I think there's sort
of maybe too many different approaches
but but one for sure is if you just you
have something that's very specialized
and you need a guy who's like he's an
expert and you can't really mess around
with you know training him so you may
need someone to run your paid
advertising to do something would say
google adwords and you know there's a
lot of nuances there is fairly fairly
niche you know its own marketing channel
and you're looking for a guy who's not
just gonna like be learning while he's
spending your money right and for that
you might all you might pay kind of you
know quote-unquote top dollar you know
I'm a higher-end freelancer just kind of
say get it done but then there's a lot
of other you know marketing work that
you know if the guy has just the right
attitude and he seems like he's you know
he's willing to learn and he's got good
command of English and loyal that those
types of things then in in more cases
than one I'd be willing to cut up that
on that guy train them up a little bit
because at the end of the day almost
everybody needs to be trained anyway on
sort of specifically what you want them
to do and then kind of you know continue
to work with them in that in that case
you often will find someone at a little
bit of a discount rate and then they'll
don't learn to do exactly you know what
you'd like them to do you can kind of
you know giving people a task right away
and that represents something that
they'll be doing in the future and kind
of seeing how they run with it and if it
doesn't go well probably you know unless
you really feel like this person has a
lot of potential you should kind of cut
them probably pretty soon and that way
it's you know there's no over investment
on anybody's part you know they always I
don't want to say like fire fast and
stuff like that I don't know but
basically just if you feel like it's not
working out early on don't force it
there's a lot of other people out there
and you just find a better fit yeah I've
seen a lot of
people will come up with an excuse and
you're like okay let it slide but
usually it's like three or so like
there's always something else and it's
very rare like I'll give something like
when one chance but if it's like
habitual there's just too many people
out there that want to work hard and are
not gonna be late so yeah I agree
so are there any people that like I
guess looking back then and even now
that inspire you and you're like looking
up to and you're like I like that path
that they are on yeah I mean there's not
a person per se that I like follow sort
of everything they do but there are
certain people that I I kind of look at
and I go you know that looks like pretty
neat like Spencer Hawes you know I think
is just you know one of those guys that
just uh seems to sort of kill it with
everything he does right yeah I know
that must not really be the case he's
probably had as his share of failures
like everybody else but uh I don't know
everything from him is like I started
this niche site like four weeks ago and
bam sold it for six figures and it's
like that type of thing but I just like
that um
seems like down-to-earth nice guy he's
always working on a lot of different you
know projects and things like that he's
not particularly flashy or sales or
marketing and you know he's with all due
respect in my opinion sort of an average
writer
but he kind of just yeah he does a good
job and he's very transparent and honest
with his with his audience and he only
appears to do very well on a lot of
different projects and is always trying
to try different things and so he's a
guy I've like over the years I've
probably kind of followed a lot of his
stuff more than others even though you
know yeah he does you know I'm a lot
more were certain sites and affiliate
sites and stuff like that which is not
as strong of an area for me but still
always interesting cool anyone else you
can take over no there's a lot of guys
I've sort of seen a little bit from here
and there but but sujin Patel from from
male shake is another one that he's a
little bit more dedicated in the
software space and he has male shake and
yes some other ones and it you know I've
talked with him on the phone a couple
times because he was doing milkshake
when I was doing in gel reach and you
know the tour caller competitors but you
know it's everybody's okay with each
other and again always found him despite
the fact that
like our companies could resume ibly
have overlap interested customers be a
very nice guy be very willing to help
you know transparent and honest and also
seems to just kind of just be like a
really great entrepreneur and you know
has a you know a lot of projects seems
to do very well and he's also doing a
lot of updates like personal like
challenges sort of like biohacking type
stuff like fasting for days and things
like that it's always really interesting
cool yeah I don't follow him much you
need to check that out you said sujin
patel yeah it sighs Neal Patel's cousin
okay gotcha I was gonna say I was like I
heard the name before so I guess that's
why gotcha you'll seem everywhere now
yeah okay so I've made like so many
mistakes like on my journey I mean I
continue to make mistakes like bigger
ones as I go on so do you have any to
share that we can learn from yeah I mean
it's sort of this so many I guess to
choose from in and a lot of them you
don't really know and you know
unfortunately until you find out and
some of them are you know sort of very
specific but they probably connect to a
larger problem so for example you know
early on with ninja age we made some
killer mistakes and I don't even know
how we ever got out of it but surely it
cost us a lot of money and one of them
was that the application was desktop
only only for Windows
not even for Mac so and also used only
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