hey miles here miles Becker calm and
today I have a guest with me Dave
Wooding say hello Dave hello Dave
so dave has helped me a bunch with
integration stuff getting my membership
site onto a wordpress based platform and
i've invited Dave here today because I
really want to help share some of his
philosophy and what he's learned through
his kind of path to this point in
getting memberships to work and getting
shopping carts to communicate
effectively with email systems and he's
the go-to guy I count on when things get
kind of scary on the tech side and I
felt it was a good time to bring him on
for a little conversation so again Dave
thank you for joining welcome thank you
I appreciate it so yeah man real quick
um how about a little bit of your
history or I mean you do development
work are like have you always been a
developer how did you find yourself up
to this point in in your personal path
Wow how far back I don't know what you
do in college oh my god let me get on
the couch yeah give me the summary the
quick summary just kind of like an
understanding of um um so I'll date
myself here when I say this but my first
website I put up with in the last
century nice cool I put up one in the
90s I had I had one site up in the 90s
on Dream Weaver yeah
December 1999 for me I just made to cut
off right on and just kind of to get
first thing I sold online was actually a
product on Clickbank and you know I have
this kind of techie bent about myself I
want to try things out and I wanted to
protect the download page so I started
searching around how to protect your
download page for Clickbank and that's
when I kind of ran into PhD and loved it
I don't
admittedly I it's kind of weird you know
to talk about this stuff but that's kind
of what got me started and then um from
there I guess kind of my evolution and
included working with some other people
helping them set up membership sites and
probably started this like ten years
go Pentagon on this app set up a
membership site I remember a friend of
mine got quoted I mean five figures
worth of money for a membership site and
I might go await a minute let's do a
little research on this one so we
basically took stuff off the shelf that
was available and made it work it took a
while you know it probably took two or
three weeks to get it set up but it did
the job and was I think the big thing is
was actually kind of off the shelf
it wasn't custom completely custom it
wasn't like somebody has to be there all
the time we just got it up and running
so from there it's been kind of a slow
progression I ended up picking up a team
last year so now I've got a lot more
capacity to do the kind of things that
we do do but that's really the short
answer on you ha I got star cool so when
you were first building the memberships
it seems like maybe it was in the day
before there were eight hundred and
forty three thousand options like there
are today hey and so at this point do
you feel like in one sense we're in a
golden age right like there's there's
it's so easy to put things together but
in another sense there's so many
different options it almost seems
overwhelming to choose or is it an
easier time to build membership sites
than ever before or is it a more
confusing time there's a livable but all
I think it's more it's a lot more easy
it's you know for Joe public to do that
they can set up something relatively
straightforward or have somebody do it
for them and the fact that you have
choices to make does make it a little
bit easier in accomplishing your goals
but I said it can be confusing you just
kind of figure out what it is you want
to accomplish and probably even more
important so what do I think is going to
happen the future yeah I mean you're
going to stay this way the whole time am
I gonna have a membership site that does
this one thing forever and ever or can I
anticipate what I might do and that's a
heart only it can't say oh yeah are you
doing a year from now I'm going to want
to do drip campaign blah blah blah blah
blah you just don't know that
kind of have to take into account what
you think might happen so it's kind of
like a foundation something that's going
to get going get you where you need to
be now with a little bit of forethought
towards the growth of where you're going
to go so and I'm going to go ahead and
tell a quick story about how you and I
started working together so a day we met
actually in Australia what three four
years ago at a vent and then we went out
to Thai food and I ended up I ended up
kind of living in your neighborhood for
a couple of months which was very
interesting world yeah on the other end
Boise Idaho you cruise by on your
mountain bike one day and we got to say
hi ah at the park and really once I
decided made that commitment to get off
of clickfunnels
is when I reached out to you and I think
this really ties in to what you just
said is when I jumped onto clickfunnels
I didn't have a big enough vision about
where my membership was going and I
didn't understand you know a 24-month
trip with 300 different components that
were delivering over 24 months
clickfunnels was simply there's just not
enough there to grow it so I kind of
actually made the error that you're
recommending people don't make and I
went on to something that was closed and
limited and you ended up helping me move
to something else it was your idea you
kind of brainchild did the the stack for
that do you want to give a little
insight as to why you helped me choose
that stack which I'm in love with by the
way because I think it was a very
clearly thought-out process on your part
yeah well I heard what you were saying
about the situation you were in and
honestly miles this is like the end of
the year was kind of round Christmas
time I knew there's a lot that sounds
weird a lot of snow around our
neighborhood we're kind of hunkered down
and you were kind of hesitant like I
know I need to do something and I said
you know what
I think we could have this done in a
week and honestly it didn't get
completed in a week but we got the main
structure there and like a lot of
projects you know we know what we want
to accomplish but there's a little
addition little adjustments it does get
done so
reason I kind of picked that one for you
and I think I heard the word simple you
know that was kind of like you know I
don't want to have a confusing system I
want to have it something that's robust
and I know you've got people that
actually work for you to that do a lot
of the things may or may not want to do
with regards to a membership kind of
managing it so want you to have a system
for you and your team that would be
relatively straightforward or not that
you know I don't have to be around you
know that's kind of my thinking is I
don't want you tie down to me or tied
down to something that's going to
restrain you god forbid you try and get
me on the phone and my mom on bike
riding good luck right so you know when
we pick the combination that you ended
up with it was the fact that you wanted
to have quite a bit of content delivered
over time and I'm going to imagine
you're going to add more but it's set up
to handle that and that's kind of why we
chose what we did was to give you that
type of flexibility yeah and another
thing that you've got me on too is and
is really powerful and I'm still barely
scratching the surface is the idea of
automations and so we've linked with
automations through active campaign and
that that automation runs my membership
and some people go as far as like
Infusionsoft which I like to refer to as
confusion soft because that that
software scares me even though you seem
to be very comfortable working within
that so for someone who before I was in
a very linear kind of my email list
everything had one channel it went down
it went this then this then this and
there was no other options
and now you've helped me get onto
something that has this automations so
for everyone else who's kind of
interested in what this means and what
you can do with this automation can you
give a brief understanding of what it is
what it does why it's beneficial right
so when I think of automation for
instance active campaigns Infusionsoft
basically calls them campaign I figured
ontraport college but the idea is you
add somebody to a sequence of events
that you want to have happen and
typically it's e you want to send that
me mail email you want to wait a day you
want to send out another email okay that
was 2,000 that was
t9 that kind of stuff that's a good
start and that's where you know it's
beneficial work it's more valuable is
when you take into account either what
people say or what people do and I think
the doing is where you can get a lot of
bang for the buck you might have an
audience of 20,000 people on your list
but are they all active right and are
they all active or are they all
interested in one subject probably not
but you can kind of measure based on
their behavior an example would be
somebody clicks a particular link near
you you can then fire off something else
app and a lot of times what I do is
oftentimes they're not targeting
everybody I'm really targeting one
person I might get notified when
somebody does something and then I
follow up with this subtle personally
mozza tennety I don't say I noticed that
you did something I say you know what
people that buy this are typically
interested in knowing this type of
information so you can basically have
events occur email notifications based
on behavior and it can be not just a
link click it can be an email being open
it can be a video being watched it can
be a video being watched 50% that type
of stuff so the world kind of your
oyster these days you know it's not just
you got to send out an email wait a day
and then another email you can basically
trigger the ate up things to occur based
on people's action so I'll give you a
good example of you know you might have
email that you're sending out I would
consider send out the first email in the
automation if they don't open it send
out the same one or a slight variation
on it to see if they're actually
interested do it maybe three or four
timings if they do open it tag them in
other words yes they are interested in
email one now they can go to email too
if you do that through like all your 10
emails you're going to have a list of
tags or a way to identify people based
on their interest my guess is you know
you're going to be a rolloff
there will be people that will open
every single email that's what probably
your best customers right right the most
engaged I mean that's really powerful
and then to think of it so
in one sense if I can kind of do a
little summary is we take that linear
email sequence and we turned it into
almost a choose-your-own-adventure so
they ignore emails a and B but they
click on email topic C we could actually
move them to a whole new follow-up
sequence that gives them five more
emails about see eventually offering
them a product highly targeted to
product C and then loop them right back
into the main autoresponder once they're
done with that automation to continue
back through the other ones yep so the
other way and this I really like this
and I need to figure out how to
integrate this is so did I hear you
correctly in saying that you're actually
getting an email back to yourself when a
user takes a certain action yeah
sometimes I'm really targeting one
person I'm I want to know when they
visited the page typically because I
would have talked to them already like
they've expressed interest in service I
have and I find out they visit a certain
page well guess what that means they're
they're kind of on the edge and maybe
can help nuts anymore and anybody who's
doing high ticket sales or anything
that's got kind of a lengthy sales cycle
I mean that is just and you had a rule
that you told me and I'd love for you to
share those rule with people and I hope
you remember it but there's a way to do
it right and not to do this kind of
stuff right and it's don't be creepy
don't be creepy with it and I think it's
really important because with this level
of technology we really can track kind
of everything they're doing and we can
kind of like set it up and it could
potentially get creepy oh yeah yeah
absolutely you know just because you
know somebody's done something doesn't
mean you have to tell yeah I noticed you
visit this page how come you haven't
bought what's your problem
I can subscribe right totally like whoa
dude you just crossed the line there I'm
on to the next there was me - wait say
way to day and say hey you know people
went by this typically have these
questions which could even be just a
separate follow-up sequence that could
kind of like go deeper in that and so my
wife and I we have I would say four main
legs of what we what we do offerings and
I'm not leveraging this enough and I
this is a
definite big reaffirmation for me that
that that deserves my attention because
not everyone wants everything and
different people have different needs so
getting I believe Frank Kern called it
behavioral dynamic responding marketing
you've got some fancy name for it so
that's kind of on the advanced side and
I really appreciate this kind of content
on the channel but like let's say for
somebody who's just getting started
they're growing a list and they want to
sell a product or a basic membership and
they really don't know how far it's
going they're just trying to get
themselves kind of to cat to break-even
right they're trying to start making
their first money or they're launching
their first membership product what kind
of tips or advice would you have someone
for someone in that situation um so yeah
just just kind of starting out it's
really to get kind of the bare bones you
know ideally you know you want to have
some kind of shopping cart right that's
going to handle all that type of payment
and that's just an area I don't think
you really want to skimp on too much um
you know that breaks you're screwed
right um you can be a little bit you
know cheaper or less expensive less
detail dog maybe just your site you're
really in theory just need a landing
page and then from there you want to get
them you know what you want to offer
something something of value someone
someone join your list they've got
something to look forward to then set
expectations on how often you're going
to contact them that type of stuff and
then you know you're going to ventually
make an offer right right so somewhere
hopefully in an email sequence or even
on a single order send them to a page
you're going to make an offer and then
how do they behave after that so you
might set up a sequence of emails over
time and then if somebody makes a
certain actually like click the link
visit the page wherever you can do
something you can set up a response you
know I know we talked about active
campaign you can track people's visits
on that page based on their behavior you
can then do something so I would suggest
something like that to me that's um
simple in theory it can be a little bit
difficult to implement but once it's up
and running miles right once it's up and
running it just cooks along and I love
that distinction between simple but it's
not easy right and we can hold you
conversations and oh yeah justjust did
to do but then actually implemented to
get it all communicating it's
challenging it's worthy of the effort
because like you said once it's set up
and running i we i we haven't talked
much since we got ours set up and
running we're running over thousand
thirteen hundred fifty hundred members
through it pretty powerful yeah yeah
it's not broken right correct and
hallelujah great thing is miles you know
with the amount of people you have
coming through
i know we set up tracking on your site
okay you you I don't think we looked at
it yet right might be fine
let's see where people are visiting what
are your most popular pages what do
people want to know more and you will
have this magical insight in what
they're interested that you it all build
in right now that's brilliant because
like what we want to do is find what
they're interested in and give them more
of that like that's keeping it simple
right like we don't need to make it more
complex than it needs to be let the data
drive what we're doing so let's say an
individual is getting started and I know
sometimes there's this belief that I
might as well just get the best if I'm
going to get started and I'm going to do
this I need to do this and let's say
somebody's relatively new and they're
considering going all into confusion
soft with a 2,000 plus dollar setup fee
and they're thinking like I might as
well just go on the most robust system I
possibly can now is that potentially a
mistake with how much complexity there
is what would you say to someone who's
considering that kind of a direction
yeah so I agree
if you thought can be confusing they
they've earned their name but in my also
I think they do a good job of what they
do um the challenge for instance with
Infusionsoft and ontraport is they're
they're fairly spendy and even though
they are all-inclusive I'll be honest
they're not really best and free for
everything we do um it it's nice to have
like your payment processor in with your
email with all that stuff however to
accomplish certain things can be very
challenging with that type of stuff and
honestly that the startup the startup
effort is is hot
it's expensive both price and time you
can start much easier I guess with
a system that does one thing like
activecampaign drip convertkit i'll do a
good job with averaging off an email
system that allows you to identify
people IE tag them set up campaigns or
automations that are visual so you can
see what's going to happen and then have
different blegh based on behavior so to
me it's in my opinion I think that can
go a super super long way combined with
like a shopping cart and then maybe a
landing page builder or a simple
WordPress site built on privacy or
something like that you can go and
what's kind of cool what you really
specialize in in this day and age is the
ability to kind of add on functionality
as needed and this is where I think
WordPress really stands out I'd love
your opinion on this as well is you know
you can kind of start with a core
landing page autoresponder and a super
simple check out and then if you want to
upgrade and go to something they could
do a drip membership like you can kind
of just interchange the bits and pieces
right yeah so let me just bash WordPress
a little bit for you please uh-huh and
keep in mind we do WordPress developer
hey so we're not shooting ourselves in
the foot here but you know WordPress
does have its limit
if I was driving a ton of paid traffic
to a landing page I might not use
WordPress it might be a little bit
slower especially if you put some kind
of script on there like that has a
deadline in or is something that calls
back to another service there's going to
be a leg so that could be a you know
type of thing to be continuous but so do
you have a positive alternative for
someone that you would potentially
recommend let me just highlight that
definitely sure 99% of people ed is not
in back got it that's one of the extreme
use there are some limitations but in
general WordPress will serve you very
well for accomplishing what you want and
you're right you want to kind of build
with the future in mind that you know I
might want to do this in the future but
you've got a really robust set of tools
just with WordPress kind of out of the
box and typically like product themes or
whatever it's going to be in five years
I'm going to be listening to this
yeah different and I think that's a
really good point is that things might
change you know we're recording this in
July 6th of 2017 and like it is an
ever-evolving landscape so as business
owners adaptability is key I know you've
probably heard me say that in a billion
of my videos already so just you know
grain of salt at this point I think is
kind of important for us to add now
you've worked with some kind of high-end
people I'm not going to name drop anyone
if you're interested cool I think it
would be I think people would be
interested to hear we've worked with but
I get that sometimes that doesn't make
sense what are some of the cooler more
interesting complex projects that you've
worked on that people have put things
together that you were like whoa once
that was all done you're like this is
really really cool and like any numbers
have you like increase the stick rate
and memberships have you decreased the
churn rate like I know you get really
granular with some of your clients on
that and because my channel my audience
broad spectrum a lot of beginners but we
got some 7 and 8-figure earners who are
kind of grown in next level so like who
people who are in that that hockey-stick
thing have you kind of had some cool
experiences to really get that yeah yeah
so ok I'm not going to mention names
either totally cool but yeah there's
definitely been some involvement with
some bigger organizations and a lot of
it comes down to especially when you're
doing big launches is little stuff like
credit card processing or you know
billion failures how do you handle that
you know you might set up an automation
Infusionsoft that allows you or the
customer to update credit cards I mean
I'm honest I'm trivial but that kind of
stuff adds up over time for people when
they're doing you know state
transactions a lot of volume a lot of
big numbers and you know you mentioned
churn that's kind of one of my favorites
okay you start doing the math on that
kind of stuff you know you get a member
or you get a client or you get a
customer that's came you session on a
reoccurring basis over time that has a
huge impact huge impact if you can take
your churn rate let's say of losing
people from 10% a month down to 3%
you know that could be the difference
between making like 67 thousand dollars
a year or making three hundred fifty
thousand dollars a year after like five
years I bring up those numbers because I
already calculated that I've seen the
impact now the theory is sorry the
theory is great the reality is you know
for instance turn is going to fluctuate
a lot especially early on if you have
low volume of customers that can be
relatively low but some simple things
for instance when we set up memberships
that helped lot are um again if somebody
doesn't engage it's kind of the biggie
if they don't engage the probability of
them sticking around for an extended
length of time is significant lower
they're people that engage if they're an
sorry to interrupt real quick but anti a
hundred percent agree have you seen or
do you have any data on like that stick
range like is it is there like a hundred
day number if we'd like is there a point
where once they cross that threshold it
seems like they stick around for
significantly longer periods of time yes
a that's true okay I mean and I'm
thinking especially for one site that
when I worked with the longest he he has
a core group of people that have been
with him for five years which is
unbelievable for the amount of time the
average time I think that people
actually stays around two years and
that's this is a paid membership right
it was in a freezing two years he's got
this core group of people that student
has been here with him for like five
years he's obviously lost from that um
but the bulk of on average to keep
stayed two years if they're going to
quit and they typically stay that long
but we did some real subtle point like
if if they haven't engaged members if
they haven't posted a message or done
something in his membership area we put
up a little sidebar banner it says hey
to get started click here take them to
where you want them to go where they
basically introduce himself I know that
sounds like one of those little tea
things and it is but it does matter so
that's a dynamic ad space essentially
your image space that shows if they
haven't engaged it shows this if they
have it shows something totally
different always kind of
hansel and gretel like laying that next
breadcrumb to get them to the next spot
other things include same thing same
idea if they haven't posted in this case
they use intercom your columns at i/o to
service that little thing at the bottom
we keep it open up yeah yeah so it will
pop up after like it seven days or
sounds with you hey again not being
creepy
hey notice you haven't posted yet go
ahead and post here and then if they
still don't follow us up with an email
they don't log in all of them with an
email and all those teeny little things
to get them to engage because we've
shown we're going to his data that
people that post are significantly
longer numbers than those at them so it
sounds like this is a forum based system
and okay so if the goal I guess and that
would be like let's take them from
lurker status to engage so they can make
friends so they have a reason to stay in
the community it's not just a come here
and read all or cool conversations it's
become a part of the conversation when
they do that average stick time could be
two years plus which man two years like
that number is insane for anything on
memberships to see people stick around
for an average of two years yeah down
will give you those little tiny things
they definitely add up over time it's
just just the subtle little things to
encourage that behavior something that I
want to point out something about you're
talking about engagement um my
observation is there's a vocal mature
minority and a silent majority yeah I
don't care you're going to have a few
people driving in for instance of Katy
based membership the conversation just
the way it is and there's definitely
people that enjoy lurking they learn a
lot and then once in a blue moon they'll
pop up and say something I just said
they'd blew me away the guy who'd been a
member since 2012 just posted this year
and he asked the question his first
question in five years question yes
that's amazing it just blew me away but
we cannot
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