Public Affiliate Sites & Working on His Own w/ Matt Giovanisci Money Lab and Listen Money Matters #Best Education Page #Online Earning

in this interview I talked to Matt

Jeevan EC from money lab go and listen

money matters he invited me into his

home studio which was a thrill

he had like guitars sitting around

beautiful microphones a really nice

workstation and it was awesome so we

basically sat around and shot the

we talked about affiliate marketing we

talked about SEO and we go pretty deep

into one of his biggest websites his

oldest websites Swim University and we

also talked about like a coffee website

that he had we talked in depth about

three of his sites which are public

sites so you can go check them out and

see what he's done and basically we we

get into swim University swim you

there's a coffee website as well and

there's also a home brewing web site you

see Matt and I actually met around the

brew pot we were having a beer and that

is that's actually how we met in person

and then organically we figured out like

hey we do the same stuff we should

probably hang out so it was a pleasure

getting into the weeds I think we're

gonna be seeing more of Matt around on

this channel and the podcast and

everything here are some of the deep

topics that we get into keyword research

writing content hiring a team and

working with just a smaller team versus

a larger team we also talked about his

software product lasso we talked about a

theme that he wrote from scratch like he

coated the thing out and we also talked

about how he is public with his websites

and I throw in why I am NOT public with

my sites so buckle in this is a great

conversation with Matt Jeevan EC and

highly recommend you check out his

channel his two podcasts so listen money

matters and money lab Co his home base

for everything is over at money lab code

there will be a link in the description

so you can get to it easily if you're

new to the channel welcome I'm glad you

checked out this video please have a

look at some of the other videos and if

you like what you see please

subscribe and if you really like this

video please hit the thumbs up like the

video and leave a comments as well feel

free to ask questions I love to get more

questions

alright Matt this studio is fantastic

thanks for having me over

Thanks thanks for coming and we're live

at the Manor here and and in Boulder

Colorado so yeah a beautiful yes noe day

yeah yeah it's no one like for the last

like three weeks it's been like

uncharacteristically we were up in Vail

and we got stuck because they were doing

avalanche mitigation oh yeah six hours

up there oh yeah and then last year we

almost we were like thirty minutes away

from actually being in a bit of

avalanche driving home oh I saw that

don't get news oh yeah

that's been here aren't we were on 70

when that happened we were just it we

just had just passed copper thank God I

didn't see that holy cow yeah that would

be terrifying I mean the video was

terrified the video terrifying yeah damn

so you and I sort of run in the same

circle and I actually knew about you

online for a couple years but for

whatever reason we never connected yeah

it was I got a bunch of people like

either DM and me or emailing me like you

know Doug lives in Colorado and as a

homebrewer

and does what you do you should probably

meet up with him I got the same that's

crazy and then through serendipity we

ended up like people would imagine

brewing beer and drinking beer and a few

weeks ago and then that that's how this

sort of weekend delay and we're actually

just actually like start it nan

organically and then ended up being

organic yep yeah so super cool and for

the people that don't know you at all

who are you and what do you work on what

do you do always everyone asked me that

could it's like like what do you tell

people like who are not who don't run in

these circles what you do for a living

and I usually tell them that I run a

website where I teach people how to take

care of their pools and hot tubs and

then the conversation is like oh cool

next thing I don't care I don't I don't

own a pool I don't care I started that

in 2004 2006 and I've been literally

doing that for over ten years and that

is my flagship thing and from there I'd

started a personal finance podcast

called this and money matters my friend

Andrew and business partner you know I

was I did it for the first year - and

then left for a couple years and then

came back so now we're doing it again

together those two are my biggest

projects and then I have a site called

money lab Co where I basically the idea

there was to take all of these things

that I was kind of doing behind the

scenes you know with some university

with lists of money matters with all

these other side projects that I have I

had a site called roasted coffee it was

a niche site that I ended up selling in

2018 and - I think somebody we both know

and I started a home brewing web site

and it's so so my my whole thing is like

for those around it that way I run a

digital media company we do digital

media and we make money through

affiliate links our own digital products

and sometimes sponsorships couple things

jump out and have me there so so number

one you started doing websites affiliate

marketing in 2005 ish yeah for how did

you get started do you remember the

first time you were like hey this is a

thing I can get into it wasn't even that

it was so I was in a band I didn't go to

college I was to pan instead and we

needed a website this is before MySpace

so if there's any like context of where

we are in the time line of the internet

before MySpace and we need a website I

was working at this pool store which is

why I have the pool site because I've

been in the pool industry since I was 13

so like that just I was sitting in the

pool store I was in a rock band we

needed a website and I was like okay

well I'm going to we couldn't afford a

website designer my dad had bought me a

computer for the college I was supposed

to go to and ended up dropping out in

two weeks twice and I decided to learn

HTML and CSS just like to build my

band's website so I did that and then I

was at work like double checking it on

the computers at work

and my boss caught me doing that where

he like was like you know went back to

the history cuz he's a psychopath and

was like uh who was looking up this site

know any obviously my face is on like

the the homepage and he's like just

yours I'm like obviously he goes did you

make it I was like yeah he's like okay

and like walked away and then hired me

the next day to do the company's website

so I started doing the company's website

and then I started doing other websites

and I ended up getting a job as a

website designer at another firm and

then got hired back to be the marketing

director of that company of the pool

company so from there

I was like whoa okay I know how to

design websites I know how to build them

I know a lot about pools there's a

website here I can I can do something

with this and that's when I had the idea

for some university I started looking up

how am I gonna make money at this like

how does this make money and I found out

about Adsense I was like Oh Adsense got

it and then I found out about affiliate

marketing and I think at the time was it

Google double-click or something is

before my time but that is a thing it

was it well I know it's a thing they

still use it yeah YouTube but a legacy

yeah yeah I had there was an affiliate

like kind of like link share sure where

I guess that's not a call link share

anymore it's called I don't know how to

say that why do you say that it confuses

me but they have commercials it's like

right rat ratatouille right now that's a

frakkin wreck and to reckon tune reckon

10 I don't know people are like ready

that's true but that but that it was

sort of like that but Google had ran it

and that was what I was using for

affiliate links and the way that I did

it then was my idea was okay if you're

reading an article about pool algae you

know how to get rid of pool algae at the

bottom I would have four recommended

products for performing that action and

I did that all manually like individual

HTML files for each article and and

manually put those all in God yeah and

I'm gonna jump deep into the weeds just

for a second okay back up favorite place

to go so a lot of times I hear from

people and they're like I have an

informational article can I recommend

products and the answer is exactly what

you said yes 100% because they have a

problem and you're like here's how you

can solve it and by the way here's how

you can do it faster easier cheap

right that's a no-brainer like yeah when

you boil it down to that that is all

affiliate marketing is it can be the

ones who stand the test of time that's

what they do right the ones that just

kind of like throw a dildo site together

and just like I'm gonna try to make

money quickly they end up failing very

quickly right let's do like really have

racial yeah so there's a couple other

things that your intro just triggered

yeah and one is like your very number

one you're super authentic and some of

the early content that I saw from you

back in like 2014-2015 is that when you

started money lab Rifai something like

that 2015 maybe okay so I saw some of

the early stuff and I was like man he's

so like genuine charismatic and

authentic thank you and going deeper you

even you know you're telling us about

swimming university you talk about the

other sites so what makes you so

comfortable to share the sites that

you're working on I never understood why

people were uncomfortable okay I know

why my business partner Andrew he has he

has a few secret sites that he will not

reveal on our show I won't reveal and

you know anything that we do because

he's deathly afraid of competition he

doesn't want he thinks he found this

little like you know niche which he did

and he doesn't want to give the secret

away especially toward to an audience of

people who do this and can do it well so

I don't have any fear of competition and

I've never had I'm not a competitive

person

I'm not into sports I if people come

over to play video games I'm like good

you won I'm like I'm I don't care you

know if we play card games or board

games I'm so fine losing I'm just not a

competitive person

and I think that's why I don't mind

sharing because the other reason I don't

mind sharing it's much harder to hide

than it is to share I always criticize

myself for not being a good writer I

didn't go to college I failed at every

English class in high school I got

better like I tried to understand

grammar cuz I do like writing it's only

when I can just you know like free flow

I have to write about pool algae that's

a little tougher because like even

though I know it which is why I start at

the site it's like I don't really have

to go and

like I know what I've told people for

you know 15 20 years like this is how

you do it this is how you do it is

worked for thousands of pool owners

I just recite that in my own words on

the internet and I think the reason I

come off authentically is because I

don't have an education in grammar so

what I only know how to write like I

talk I've never had I've never been

formally trained I don't know how to

sound smart

so I just learned how to use semicolons

and I'm like I'm trying not to use them

because I don't want to come off

pretentious and although I use them in a

couple hours because I was like I've

it's fitting it's you know especially

like timing for jokes but yeah I think

it's because I didn't like I wasn't good

at formal writing that I wrote free what

do they call that like free association

kind of like free form and then I go

back and I clean up the editing of the

grammar and stuff okay so it's like

stream of conscious that's what it is

screamin stream of consciousness I write

that way and then I go back or I'll

usually do it while I'm doing it so like

I might write a paragraph or two and

then look at those paragraphs and go

okay how can I make the sentence shorter

or how can I say the same thing but

faster or how can I pepper in a joke or

a funnier word and that was when I

started money lab I you know I might we

do that on Swim University and my other

sites but you know I dislike it

you know but on money lab it's easy for

me to just go like this is what I'm

working on like this is just everything

I do kind of like TMI but I I always

said like you know the reason I started

money lab is because like those are the

things I love watching behind-the-scenes

videos about anything you know that to

me is way more educational than somebody

telling me how they do something just

show me how you do it I just want to see

your process and yes so you have a ton

of case studies and I think that is a

much easier less maybe less formal way

yes sort of like a course or a hell

class work yeah right I know I mean I

can write a how-to but it's so much it's

so draining for me to do I don't like I

mean that's why now I can finally hire

writers and go okay thank I don't have

to write about poo algae anymore

but before I would that's why I was

doing all of that stuff and it's so

funny because you know somebody who who

did fail every English class and who did

dropped out drop out of college because

of an English teacher who failed me on a

how-to article this is what I ended up

doing for a living so I feel like really

hard for me to recommend college to

people when when this thing happens to

me but you know obviously I got into a

thing that you don't really need a

college education for but sometimes you

do like doctors lawyers they need to go

right right no very good and quick aside

as far as because I don't talk about my

sights personally really and I'm not

necessarily afraid of competition

although I have had people just

straight-up copy every single article I

haven't done almost every month right so

I have I have a pre-written cease and

desist so that that's that's one reason

to not reveal the size but the other is

a negative SEO and I've personally lost

like tens of thousands of dollars from

that I know generally Google is very

good at recognizing negative SEO and

just links at there's a point

in time however if a person is

persistent they could yeah it works and

yeah so generally I try and stay below

the radar as much as I can although like

you said if people start digging right I

mean we leave footprints yeah around yes

I mean that's the thing you can find out

but I mean I don't know I just been

doing this so long and I've hadn't I

mean bamboo but I haven't had any like

issues with it with it and in fact only

praise that I am share and it's like oh

this is like I feel like one of the only

people on the internet who like just

shows the dirt you know and shows the

kind of behind the scenes stuff I know I

think I think like well people who do

niche sites publicly I think you know we

talked about Spencer from knitters I

think he you know she Tita I mean I know

what his sites Arden he didn't tell me

personally like so he definitely like

says what they are you know and I know

Neil Patel has done that too

but but then again like their personas

is their websites and then the things

that they do is for content for that

website and so that's kind of the way I

look at money

which is yes some universities started

many many years ago I could just

secretly run that on the side but then I

wouldn't have anything to write about on

money lab because I'm not doing

I'm not producing niche sites or

podcasts or any sort of like media for

things outside of my core businesses

they are for my core businesses and so

it's like I didn't share those things I

would have no content for money lab

right that makes sense

yep totally in yes Spencer niche site

project yeah before is is the current

one and he that they out to her like

swing set up okay yep so he worked on

the site for like a year and then

revealed it so at least he didn't have

people in the beginning I'm trying to

you know goof up what's going on yeah

and yeah there's a handful I know

there's a youtuber Alex Cooper WP Eagle

and he does like a public case study as

well so yeah yeah and I again I

understand I mean I guess now when you

say it I understand why like I was

always like why like I thought of just

competition but I get yeah I mean I

guess there's bad people yeah I do bad

things there yeah your site's been

around for a while no one do that by the

way that sites been around for a while

but you you have launched some some

newer ones and can we talk about yeah

rue yes I okay so how did you how did

you pick that at the end the answer and

then as far as like keywords and stuff

can you just talk about some of the

preliminary research yes all of the

sites that I've started are based on

things that I know I think way back in

the day you know as I was starting some

University I did have some other niche

sites like a Crocs you know like the

shoe the rubber shoe Crocs website I did

have a snowboarding web site which I

snowboard so that wasn't that far off I

had a home recording studio site

little tiny little niche sites cuz I was

I was under this impression that like oh

start a ton of niche sites see which one

takes off and then just double down on

that so I kind of like throw throw

everything against the wall see what

sticks and then kind of move forward no

I don't do that anymore I'm just like

okay what do I really want what do I

really what can I talk about if like if

I can't hire a writer for the first year

to like what can

right about or what do I want to see in

the world coffee was one of those which

is why I started roasting coffee because

I had such a hard time when I was really

trying to get into coffee just

personally I was like all these sites

kind of suck you know I think there was

like a few that were pretty decent but

they were trying to be so hipster that I

was like you're actually like giving me

minimal information in an effort to be

minimal so it's like you're yeah oh

so I started roast Eve and then

obviously I'm a homebrewer so obviously

there's no but I I've been a home brewer

for a while on and off I've been on very

much for like the last two to three

years but it I started it back when I

was living my parents in Jersey

something I've always been interested in

it's one of those things like I can sit

down and watch really really bad YouTube

videos as long as it's about home

brewing I could sit there for hours

did you remember back in the day there

was brewing TV on it was a podcast yeah

yeah one of my fit

I still go back and watch him basic

brewing video i watch I can go back and

just watch old episodes yeah yeah ever

and it's just one of those things I'm

like I can just non-stop devouring this

content same so why not jump jump in and

do what I you know what I think is

missing from the space and what I always

thought was missing was just really

specific informational how to's

everything looks like sort of anecdotal

sort of like here's what I've done sort

of like I'm testing this I'm testing

that it's like well I don't really need

to see all the testing which is like

what money labs all about it's kind of

the opposite like I've done this i

brewed this beer you know 16 times I

have this process down I've tried these

ingredients I've tried these processes I

tried these products this is the way for

if you want us to get started so I kind

of like just cut to the chase give me

the answer and then I can go from there

like I will build off of like your hard

work and then move on to something so

that's what I really want it so I start

at brew cabin you know we live in

Colorado I'm wearing Patagonia so it's

like cabin is the thing I always wanted

to have one and maybe will one day so

that was and I just

nice ring to it and then as far as like

keyword research so brute cabins had

sort of a tumultuous sort of up-and-down

tumultuous like on-and-off cycle where

it's like okay I'm gonna do it as a

money lab experiment to start this home

brewing website and see if I can make it

profitable in a year and the idea there

was to create a bunch of content create

a recipe database created an ingredients

database and then build software to help

homebrewers you know track recipes and

build recipes and stuff because at the

time you know we had beer Smith we had

beer tools we had and that was like we

had Brewers friend which was online but

those other tool tools that everybody

was using were things you had to

download on your computer and really

were made for Windows so it was like all

right I wanted something that I could go

outside and not have to download

something I can go on my phone and just

you know so I thought I'll do that now

there has been there's many but that was

the original idea hired a writer

multiple writers and the way that I did

research is I iced and I talked about

this in my course but I do two types I

do first I start with competition

research which I use a program called

hrs and I'd start looking at who out

there is writing about home brewing you

know and I'm just going on Google and

typing in a lot of these things I knew

because I'm like I know research I'm

like home brewers association is a big

one they're here in Boulder beer and

brewing in Fort Collins there's brew

aasif either all these people that are

writing content you know I call it

competition but I'm not trying to really

compete but they've done the hard work

to rank for things maybe not even trying

right I want to see what they're ranking

for and what people are searching for so

you look at them first and you see what

are their top pages what are your top

keyword and then what are the

difficulties on them so and if there are

they worth going after so usually when I

go into a tree F's I look for stuff that

has over a thousand searches a month

with low difficulty in the home brewing

space so when I first started a lot of

the articles were like you know a yeast

starter was like the first article or

it's like okay that's not the first

article you would put on a site if you

were thinking of it as like a course

or something but I'm like well I need to

start getting traction from Google and

then I do this thing where not every

post is a post that's like rank able we

it's kind of like I don't know who came

up with as this Director thing it's like

you know do one for them two for you you

know one for them three for you whatever

the idea is like you do a movie for the

public you do the ER you do the Avengers

and then you do your your indie flick

that you really want to do sir and that

and the way I look at it is that you

could also I think you can you look at

it like okay well I'm going to do an

article about you starter because the

competition is low it's obviously about

home brewing and I'm gonna do it really

well and I'm gonna start ranking but

then I'm gonna do an article about brew

in a bag or something that has that

really doesn't have maybe a good search

volume but I want it to exist and the

people who find me through the yeast

starter article goes oh there's other

things this is a really good site I'll

subscribe I'll become you know dedicated

follower and so I'd follow the same

principles on all the sites which is

like not everything has to be ranked

able but if we do I tend to do this what

I call it the moonshot effect or the

moonshot technique which is another way

to say it is go big or go home or the

idea of being like shoo for the moon and

landing the stars right so you go after

the big parent keyword but knowing that

you won't reach it but you will end up

ranking for all these tertiary or

secondary keywords in the process of

doing that so it's like try really hard

to write the best thing for this

impossible keyword and in the process

without even really trying all that hard

you'll end up like you know ranking for

all these little things that you know

end up you know collectively giving you

a ton of traffic okay you know that's

kind of the way I approach it but you

know I do tend to shy I mean like for

example like brewing software as a term

is like a forty difficulty which is

pretty high for the home brewing space

and it gets like 250 searches a month so

it's like high difficulty low volume I'm

going to write that article because it

needs to be I feel like it needs to be

written

I may not rank for brewing software but

in but I may rank for like brute

fools review or brew father review or

all these like little things that I'm

going to pack into the article that like

I didn't even look for or and or didn't

even come up in the competition research

research in you know a traps it's like

it or maybe like I didn't who the hell

knows that people are searching for this

unless you were to literally go into a

dress and go I wonder if this specific

keyword gets and you have to literally

type it in and get it right and then oh

well you found something interesting so

you know I think you start from what

others have done and then you kind of

work your way into like you know at

that's at that point you might have some

clout and you'll start to rank for

things much easier after that cool so

have you heard of the keyword golden

ratio yes okay because you told me about

it okay weeks ago cool so it's like the

sort of the opposite approach so it's

only under two hundred and fifty

searches per month using a dress or

something comparable usually yeah yeah

whatever tool but I'm like I'm agnostic

yeah tool so again we'll come back to it

later cuz I don't want to just hijack

the whole thing not interesting part is

I like this specific format to find

keywords it happens to be a good one for

like the keyword golden ratio but just

in our example here it would be like

best brewing software for Androids right

product yeah so it's a yeah best product

name for a specific application or user

type or whatever and then it's you know

you do Google autosuggest

at that point right and then it just

gives you a layout eight list or a list

of eight and then use those for like

your subheading that example would be

like you're saying yeah and but you have

to do that a lot right

use that mean you're creating more

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