hey what's going on
it's Dunnington here and this is the
Doug show and in this episode i
interview Sam McRoberts and Sam is the
founder of Voodoo marketing and that's V
udu marketing and he is an exceptional
SEO when he contacted me I was like I
think I've heard of this guy before why
do I know this guy and then I did a
little research and realized that I
heard Sam for the first time with Pat
Flynn because Sam audited smart passive
income back in the day in fact that's
one of the topics that we talked about
in the interview actually I got my start
making money online and working online
and any sort of marketing from Pat Flynn
and smart passive income so I was like
yes and we could definitely we could
definitely do a show I'm glad you
reached out the cool thing is Sam Sam as
a traveller's while he's a digital nomad
he and his family like packed up and
they're on the road a lot of the time
they do sort of like slow and long-term
travel which I can appreciate that's the
sort of traveling I like to do versus
like visiting for a short amount of time
so Sam and I talked about how he got
started in SEO we talked about working
with Pat Flynn in the audit that he did
for smart passive income by the way you
can go check out that original interview
and some of the show notes and stuff on
the smart passive income podcast if
you're interested before I send it to
the interview I want to let you know Sam
has a couple courses on SEO ones
oriented towards like individuals and
the other ones more at the corporate
level so have a look if you need some
help in the like just basic like pure
SEO area and you you don't need help
specifically on like affiliate marketing
or content on the content side or
something like that
check it out like I said Sam has some
pretty awesome SEO chops he has very
good credentials he's worked with
awesome people and it was a pleasure
interview
him so let's send it over to the
interview now thanks a lot Sam hey
what's going on it's Doug Pennington
here and I'm with Sam McRoberts how are
you doing today
hey Doug I'm doing great thanks for
having me and we don't know each other
well which is one of my favorite sort of
interviews to do because we'll be able
to get to know each other a little bit
and then dive into some deeper sort of
advanced topics with SEO digital nomads
stuff and probably like just general
internet marketing so for people that
don't know you see him can you give us a
little bit of an intro yeah so I started
into the world of online marketing web
design back in the late 90s I had an
English teacher who realized that I
hated the normal English curriculum and
she thought it'd be more a better use of
my time to have me learn how to build
websites and write copy for those so
cool English teacher think thankful for
her kicking me off into that sphere and
I just kind of stuck with it ever since
helped my mom run an eBay business for a
while
got into doing SEO and web design at a
small agency and then a bigger agency
and you know over time I've just kind of
built my way up through the industry and
couple years very cool and like back in
those bay days like what sort of stuff
were you doing just curious oh boy you
know building websites in like hot dog
editor writing titles and descriptions I
mean the stuff that worked SEO wise was
you know garbage compared to now right
just keywords anywhere you could put
them sticking stuff in the the far
corner of the non-visible part of the
website or mass links from any directory
anywhere Google was very indiscriminate
in the early days that's yeah there's
pretty funny how far things have
progressed and you know new updates are
coming out like seems like daily or you
know hourly or something like that over
the past year or so how have you have
been able to stay like on top of it as
you progressed over you know like the
lifespan of the internet it seems yeah I
mean I'd say half of it is just always
being in the weed this is working on
people's sites
the problems that are cropping up and
then the other half is ear to the ground
listening to what other people are
finding you know the SEO industry is
full of like Sherlockian sleuths who are
constantly paying attention to every
little uptick in downtick and digging in
and so I there's well there's a lot of
conspiracies there's also a lot of
really sharp people who see everything
that Google does and share their
hypotheses pretty openly so I think if
you if you're in the weeds and then
paying attention to the industry it's
not too hard to keep up cool and well to
go a little deeper on that and we're
going like advanced pretty quick here
it's just I want to dive into like some
of these recent algorithm updates maybe
I think there were a couple sort of like
around this time last year in 2018 so
like August September October time frame
a lot of it was around like trust and
authority and just expertise in a lot of
people unfortunately will say they know
exactly what to do to you know fix
things up right after the update but I
feel like I think the updates are
getting more complex it's a little
harder to figure out so what have what
are your observations around that sort
of thing yeah so the eat thing is it's
an interesting one I wish you could say
oh yeah there's a there's a quick fix
but you know it takes time to build
Authority it takes time to build a name
in a space and I think Google is getting
much better at determining not only
which sites but which authors are
genuinely authoritative in their space
based on tons of data like you know I in
the scientific field are they publishing
are those going up in peer-reviewed
journals are those getting cited a lot
like Google's trying to gather as much
data as they can especially for you know
more sensitive like your money your life
type stuff to make sure that they're not
promoting and ranking things well that
are pseudoscience dangerous unfounded
and I think a lot of sites that just put
up anything they wanted in those spaces
got caught up in that so Google's trying
to make sure that you know for those
sorts of queries where expertise
Authority and Trust really really matter
that they're finding sites and
individuals who really meet their
parameters and at the same time a lot of
the more recent updates have been around
a searcher intent and so you know I've
seen sites lose a fair amount of traffic
where they're a good site they're a good
site in their space but they were
getting a lot of traffic from keywords
where you know maybe the bounce rate was
a little too high or the the searcher
intent wasn't quite a perfect match and
so they're not getting penalized it's
just Google's doing better at sending
people to the stuff they really want and
not stuff that like hey maybe this is a
fit but I'm not sure very good yeah I've
seen I've seen like like you said it
takes time for the authority to build
and you know if you try to fix
everything in like a week it may not
work for forever or it may take several
months or whatever so it's just it's
very from my perspective it's
frustrating when someone comes out
they're like hey if you just do this
like I figured it out like they
definitely haven't figured it out yeah
what I mean it is one of those things
right even if you've even if you've been
in your space for a long period of time
even if you've been writing about a
topic for a long period of time in a way
that may make you sort of expert ish but
that may not make you expert enough from
Google's perspective so if you're you
know even if you've been writing about
the health and nutrition space for a
decade if you're not a doctor not
licensed or certified not being cited in
papers not connected to a university
maybe you're still not relevant enough
for some of those queries where Google's
trying to be a little more careful right
so let's switch gears just a little bit
before we you know talk about a little
bit more beginner sort of topics for SEO
you travel a little bit right so can you
tell me about your journey as far as a
digital nomad and like where you're at
now yeah so my wife and son and I
started traveling early in 2018 started
in South America and then
spent most of the time working our way
through Western and Central Europe
and so at the moment we're in Romania
headed to London and then Spain soon but
I love it like it's the coolest
lifestyle I could ever imagine so like
were you pretty grounded before you
started traveling in 2018 we you know we
tried traveling a little earlier my son
was only three
so back in 2014 we went to Italy for
three months and he did not take to
traveling well so we came back home but
like my wife and I get pretty restless
pretty easily and so you know we've
never I feel like we've never lived in
the exact same place for more than a few
years at a time before we feel Restless
and need to go somewhere else
gotcha so and I was gonna say three
months is a pretty decent chunk of time
and do you guys still like stay in a
spot for you know weeks or months yeah
we usually aim for somewhere between one
and three months with some exceptions
like London we're only gonna be there a
week because it is an obscenely
expensive city but for the most part we
try and spend enough time there to
really get to know the city settle down
get better prices on apartments that
sort of thing you could you could like
live like a local and you don't have to
be in a rush right exactly I hate the
rushing side of travel I hate it like I
love being in new places but the process
of getting there yeah it drives me crazy
here my wife and I we don't have any
kids but we were doing sort of this slow
travel thing we were working remotely
with our corporate jobs before I got
laid off and yeah we were like rent a
house for like a month or so we were
going to sort of expensive cities and
stuff that is expensive is London but we
would just hang out and be able to work
a lot of normal hours and it was great
to see the city experience things and
like you said no rush like you you can
have a loose itinerary and sort of
stumble your way into some fun things
that you wouldn't have otherwise I guess
totally I mean the best thing for us has
just been hitting the city and not
having an itinerary but just walking
around each day and pick a different
direction and see what we find
did you have a lot of stuff that you had
to like put in the store
or how did you deal logistically with
traveling long-term or full-time yeah a
bit of both we sold off a lot of stuff
we put some stuff in storage but not a
ton and then we travel we travel with
probably way too much stuff we like our
comforts and so we have you know quite a
few suitcases so we still could probably
pare back a bit better but yeah that's
okay I mean you you want to be
comfortable while you're out there so
have you found yourself like without
something that you need and is you know
maybe you don't have access to Amazon
Prime or something like that sometimes
some things have been tricky to get one
of the most annoying things in Europe
honestly is the way pharmacies work and
you know what is or isn't
over-the-counter in different places and
their attitudes toward different things
like some places it's really hard to get
birth control other places it's
over-the-counter and they don't care
some places you can just walk in get
allergy medicine off the shelf other
places you need a prescription and so
that ambiguity has been frustrating and
then like all the pharmacies over here
are still a mom-and-pop style or at
least most of them so they have kind of
a stranglehold on it so your prices can
vary wildly from pharmacy to pharmacy
mm-hmm
great crazy I didn't even like think of
that but yeah how could be a little
frustrating Yeah right like yeah you
can't go to Costco and get a year's
supply of claritin or zyrtec you can get
like a month's supply with the
prescription maybe from some pharmacies
and then I imagine there's some places
where you can get like whatever you can
go like you know heroin over-the-counter
right I'm just kidding about hit they're
hard drugs but you can get like some
prescription level dress you can't get
in the US right yeah some things and
then you know Amsterdam of course you
can get pretty much anything but yeah
I'm in Colorado so we're kind of loose
you know with them with things around
here so yeah we were we were in Seattle
before we left the states same camp
yeah and it's it's a memory and like I
feel like we were just able to get
alcohol you know not that long ago and
anyway so let's get back on topic here
this this happens with me so what did
the reasons why I wanted to talk to you
you worked with Pat Flynn smart passive
income on an SEO audit a little while
back can you tell me how you got
involved and just what was the outcome
there yeah so my buddy Neil Patel
connected us said Pat needed an audit
I'd been a fan of Pat's for a while
listen to the podcast a lot so I was
absolutely I would love to do that did
the audit which is really good Pat site
was actually in pretty good shape
overall handful of technical things that
needed to get fix but his on page was
generally really good and put a lot of
effort into building that rich clean
site so it was nice to not have to go to
him and be like man everything's broken
cuz it wasn't he did pretty well but he
was really nice really nice guy to work
with I enjoyed doing that so it sounds
like things generally went well do you
happen to recall I didn't tell you to
prep for this but do you happen to
recall any sort of results or I guess
just details about like what you did
yeah actually I can probably pull up the
audit I think he was pretty transparent
with everything on the podcast let's see
anyway pulling that up I'll just fill
time we don't want dead air here so I've
got oh you got I've already got it I got
it uh yeah so you know my audits looking
at three main areas so there's the on
page keyword centric stuff there's the
technical back-end stuff and then
there's the external signals the links
social signals on linked mentions that
sort of thing so you know unsurprisingly
he absolutely killed it on the linking
and social side of things you know he's
done really really well there his
technical was where he had the biggest
issues like page speed was a big problem
and there were some crawl errors and
then on page overall it was pretty good
but there were a few elements that he'd
neglected over time like meta
descriptions where you know even though
a Meta Description doesn't directly help
SEO it directly impacts your
click-through rate which is huge those
were like those were the highlights I
mean technically the site was pretty
sound other than page load speed and
some crawlers and yeah the on-page the
vast majority of it was buttoned down or
just a couple of little things like the
meta
descriptions internal linking could have
been a bit better okay all right I'm
gonna dive into a couple of those areas
so from a page speed perspective we're
where do we want to be so you know
ideally somewhere between one and three
seconds for a total page load speed
faster for mobile you can get away with
a little bit slower on desktop from
Google's perspective Google doesn't
process anything that takes longer than
five seconds to load on the page so if
it's slower than that you're you know if
if content that matters for your
rankings is loading after that you're in
trouble okay and presumably text is
loading pretty darn quick and most of us
are worried about the text so as long as
your site isn't super slow like over
three seconds then you're probably okay
you would hope but you know a lot of
people are starting to pull in text with
JavaScript or jQuery or you know maybe
lazy loading parts of the page maybe
only pulling in some of the content
further down after they've loaded an ad
or maybe it's stuck behind a pop-up that
takes too long to go away like there's a
lot of things that can kind of get in
there and get in between the content and
the crawler let's slow it down
especially if you have say an ad driven
site if you're prioritizing ad load
ahead of content load some sites do that
can get pretty messy okay that makes
sense I've been a little obsessed with
like page load speed for a little while
and have got like greatly simplified my
site and took yeah justjust I've ripped
a lot of stuff out and it's loading much
faster and it looks a lot cleaner is
much different than other sites maybe
I'll ask you about it later but moving
on to Meta Description so I know that
you in my opinion I know they used to be
super important but Google seems to be
just taking whatever they want for the
Meta Description in most cases so I
literally stopped doing it a couple
years ago because whatever I put in
there was not relevant so I just make
sure my first sentence is tight and then
after that if Google is pulling
something else then you know I assume
that they're testing it so
see why do we need to do the Meta
Description if Google is just taking
whatever they want so Google only takes
whatever they want if they think they
can get a better click-through rate than
what you've already got so if I usually
recommend that you write your Meta
Description not like everybody else so
if you do a search for whichever keyword
or keywords are most important to you
read down that first page of results and
see what people are using for
descriptions and then try and come up
with a way to explain your page that's
completely different use use humor yeah
you know different sentence styles or
structures or Cadence's but like you
need to stand out on that page if you're
gonna want to get clicks cruz and it
really for all intents and purposes its
add text like it's your opportunity to
write something that's gonna intrigue
somebody enough to click through to your
site and so I think if you do a really
good job of writing it with clicks in
mind you know catching people's interest
Google is much less likely to write
something different on the fly
also if you keep it within their
parameters not too short not too long
while structured not stuffed full of
keywords right
as long as it's well-written and short
enough and not too short Google will
probably leave it alone okay and I take
it you have plenty of like case studies
and/or data where you're like yep like
we've done a good job copywriting here
and they're not messing with it
yeah I've seen lots of instances where
nobody has ever seen a different Meta
Description come up on their site for
their most important pages because those
the ones they've written they're not
written and optimized really well that's
that seems to be key you know Google may
still test stuff right like they yank
sites into test buckets all the time to
tweak things but overall I feel if
you've done a good job you should be
seen what you've written cool okay that
that is good to know because I've
basically like after I I saw this on my
side so I was like you know what they're
not they're not taking any of the stuff
that I'm putting in so I'm not even
gonna waste time with it so I will test
that out definitely and you could pick
two pages that are you know maybe
similar in topic
at rank for something and then try and
write a really really click inducing
description for one and leave the other
one the same and see what happens
because you can drill in and search the
console to a specific page and look at
the impressions and click-through rate
over time for that page so that might be
a fun it'd be a fun test to do but yeah
okay got it got it and to that point as
far as like click-through rate and stuff
on the SERPs table of contents I know
some people put a table of contents on
like every single post and occasionally
you know again you may see those like
subheadings or whatever's in your table
of contents in the SERPs so have you
observed this a lot and do you recommend
a table of contents for like every page
not necessarily for every page I think
it depends a lot on the length of the
page and how you have it broken out but
I've definitely seen a lot more
instances of pages that are very long
and that use table of contents showing
up in search results and in some cases
this table of contents are helping to
lead to you know rich results on the
search
okay very good any other tips on like
Rich Snippets or like fa Q's or any any
of the other extra things on the SERPs
and how we may be able to show up out
there yeah I mean so I think use
obviously adding in the schema for that
can help I think it's still the jury is
still out on whether that's a good thing
or a bad thing as far as it you know
affects your click-through rate like the
upside to getting those rich results is
hey you ranked ahead of everybody else
the downside is that Google is trying to
answer things without you know taking
somebody off the search page so it may
or may not actually be good for your
traffic I think it depends a lot on the
space and how well that snippet answers
their questions I think and this is
really more in line with content
creation in general so a content that's
long enough to need a table of contents
is generally able to hit a topic from a
lot of different angles and Google seems
to have a high preference for that so
instead of sending because they see the
they see the whole string of search
queries right somebody who searches
best cities in Southeast Asia right
maybe they're looking to move or maybe
they're looking to travel it's still a
bit ambiguous person who then searches
best time of year to visit Taiwan
alright they're getting a little more
specific and then cheapest hotels in
Taiwan in September right like bit by
bit people are dialing in their queries
so if you can create a piece of
continent that can help answer all of
these questions that somebody might have
through their query lifecycle for a
specific topic that one unified page is
much more likely to rank got it so I
created this concept called the keyword
golden ratio you may not be familiar
with it at all have you heard of it or
anything I'm familiar with the golden
ratio not the key word Galatia
it's just clever branding on my part
there's no actual relationship to the
golden ratio but okay point yeah like
you you you recognize the term you're
like hey maybe I should check this out
so basically it is a way to find like
keywords that are underserved on the
internet so the keyword golden ratio is
the all-in title results like the number
of all in title results divided by the
search volume so it's it's an old-school
way to do keyword research
I think people probably you have to do
that way back right did you yep so it's
manual you probably realize Sam's that
like if you try and do very many of
these all in titles Google will throttle
you they think you're a bot stuff like
that so but it turns out that if you do
this and you look for keywords that have
a search volume under 250 or so usually
you can target that like very specific
query and usually rank pretty darn quick
if you do the math backwards you end up
with like 62 and a half so it means
there's 62 and a half or fewer 62 or
fewer results out there and if you write
a good piece of content a lot of times
you'll show up in the top 50 now it's
cool for a lot of folks in my audience
because they are affiliate marketers
they're dabbling maybe they've never
ranked anything in the top 250 ever so
if they're
able to do this to get some traction
they could tweak things because now
they're getting some data and you know
they believe they have momentum so this
is going in the opposite direction from
what you just described so what's your
take on that I know I threw a lot at you
but I think you see what I'm getting at
Micro sure like micro queries very
specific versus like the broad
all-encompassing topic and content yeah
I think if you're going after the
longtail then going that way it makes a
lot more sense but if you know a lot of
people still go after the bad terms they
want to rank for the the big boy massive
traffic stuff and to do that you have to
be pretty comprehensive but of course I
think the longer tail you go in your
query and the the more niche the phrase
is the more specific you could be in
your answer and you know what was it was
it I'm Stein you said you know make
something as simple as possible and no
simpler you don't want to make your you
want to make your content as short as
you can but no shorter to fully answer a
searchers query you know if you can do
that in 200 words then do it in 200
words and if it takes 2,000 do it in
2000 but make sure that you are concise
but effective in how you're answering
those queries perfectly said yeah yeah
exactly and you know to sort of tie it
tie it together
I believe those you know the big boy
terms or big girl terms that we're
talking about here like they could take
a while to rank you may need a lot of
backlinks but sort of this scenario that
I've seen a lot is like if someone has
sort of a you know a silo of content
we'll call it or a cluster or however
you want to describe it
you have content around this topic with
a bunch of these like long tail I call
them cagey are terms you can rank for
those and then you can you know
interlink in an intelligent relevant way
to your you know bigger piece of content
that's going to take more time unless
you have relevance you're actually
ranking for terms that are related and
from my perspective from what I've seen
it works pretty well and I bet you've
seen it is I'm not gonna put words in
your mouth but have you observed a
similar thing yes yeah you can go about
it both ways you can build out a really
rich
piece of content and then use that to
help a bunch of other things rank or you
can do it in reverse and for you know
I'd say for a smaller site or somebody
with less budget it's a lot easier to do
it the other way it just takes longer
yep yep okay cool it's good to get
confirmation and like you know what I'm
doing from someone who has like a
completely different set of data and
that sort of thing so very cool all
right we're gonna jump back to like
beginner SEO so what are some of that
like the most common mistakes that you
see when people come to you for help so
I'd say the biggest ones page load speed
is huge I feel like most people have
never even given it any thought and they
have tons of third party tools and
plugins and you know huge images and
it's just nobody nobody has like wait a
second like is this gonna be a good
experience you know I feel like most
developers are just trying to make a
pretty experience so that's a huge one
I'd say almost every site that I end up
auditing is far slower than it could be
um I'd say another really common problem
is just technical errors whether it's
crawlers or missing redirect rules just
having kind of a messy site know URLs
have changed over time and not that
pointed somewhere else or you have three
different ways to reach your homepage
because you don't have your basic
redirect rules in place that's very
common also and then beyond that like
link building is still and really has
always been kind of difficult and I
think for a lot of sites it's just not a
priority they all they'll earn whatever
links they earn naturally but don't ever
put any effort into building them and so
that's an you know unless it's a big and
that's almost always a sticking point I
I see that as well especially especially
with new folks because they're a little
bit nervous to reach out to anyone
they're afraid to get rejected but
that's just part of the game from my
perspective so like do you have any
specific tips on like getting links
especially for beginners yeah I mean I
feel like a really simple way is just go
find the relevant sub reddits for your
topic and share your article you could
use a small
of money and do some ads on social like
Facebook ads Instagram ads Twitter ads
targeting people who are you know have a
relevant interest or on Twitter follow
somebody in particular I'm just getting
content in front of a relevant audience
or you can search for people you can use
like buzzsumo to see which content on
competitor sites has gotten a lot of
traction and then go see who has shared
and interacted with that content and
then just go share it with them as well
cinnamon email share it with some on
Twitter like it's it's still a fairly
manual process right link building you
know doing it the right way is manual
anything anything that scales in link
building is probably gonna get you in
trouble at some point I feel like yeah
it just it takes takes time and effort
but putting a little bit of effort into
figuring out where your audience is
spending their time and then sharing it
with them there seems to be pretty
effective to to like I guess go deeper
on the scaling part I agree with you by
the way I end up getting a lot of emails
abut you get a lot of emails too for
people that just want to link to their
site and love this article that you
wrote it's really great I just recently
put together this piece of content I
think you'd really like here's a link if
you'd mention it over on this page of
yours right yes I got that all this or
like you know Brian Dean had his
templates that he was sending out at one
point and it's like hey do you want to
see this piece of content and then I
have to send another email I already get
too many emails see it like yeah so
those are terrible yeah
I hate those I get so many of them and I
forget the exact question this is just a
venting session for I mean the tools are
sophisticated so they're sending like
reminder emails people are just loading
in a bunch of email addresses and maybe
they're mentioning a specific article
but the there's such weak pitches so I
mean do you see those being like flagged
as spam at some point or
I mean is that just the way it's gonna
go or we all gonna get like way more
spam like we're getting like
telemarketers calling our phones and
stuff I feel like most of them probably
get flagged as spam at this point I
rarely see any of them hit actually
hitting my inbox I only see them when I
go and check my spam folder to make sure
nothing got through that shouldn't have
been spam because Google's wise to it
right it's a mess and the people who are
doing that as scale are just turds of
the industry it drives me crazy yeah
yeah I agree there's courses out there
teaching it and I'm like no you need to
be like surgical about this you don't
need as many links you need some good
ones out there and you hear people say
it and maybe it sounds kind of trite but
like if you build good enough content
you're not gonna have a hard time
getting people to link to it and share
it I just make something that's good
enough put the time and effort into
creating content that's actually helpful
and worth sharing and better than
anything else on the subject by a mile
you'll get the links yeah and I think
like you said people will share it and
on social that is big because I'm not a
social media person I kind of hate it
but I have observed like things are
being shared in certain Facebook groups
and I'm not doing it because you know no
one wants to hear self-promotion but if
someone else does it it has way more
merit I think I think I mean in those
scenarios I think self-promotion is fine
as long as it's relevant if it's
actually going to help people who are in
that audience then in a way you're doing
them a disservice by not sharing but
don't constantly be Hawking your stuff
everywhere you go especially when it's
not relevant yeah that's a good way to
put it I think you know what I just have
a bad attitude so I was like I don't
want to deal with these people they're
mean to me in the comments so I'm out
but that's just my own personal personal
- yeah yeah and I think you've got to be
careful a lot where where you go to
share it you don't you know you don't
want to share your content in places
that are just oversaturated like III
think of it as don't make minimum pieces
of flair content I love the movie office
space it's like look if you're if you're
looking out there alright what's the
absolute least I can get away with for
this piece of content on my site then
you know your crap doesn't deserve to
get laid - and it doesn't
you get shared but so you mentioned
Brian Brian Dean like his back linkle's
content is just insanely good he spends
what twenty to a hundred hours
generating a single piece of content
there are thousands of words they have
screenshots they have video they have
tables like they're so well built if you
build content like that your odds of
getting shares and links and ranking is
really good
awesome yeah I mean and he doesn't even
have that much content either like on a
you know URL basis like it's like 40
pages yeah and a lot of a lot of people
in in my area they're talking about like
authority sites versus niche sites and
there's various definitions out there
which I mean I can't argue with
someone's particular definition but
backlinko is one of the sites that I
cite where I'm like he doesn't have much
content but he's definitely an authority
in the industry it's an authority type
site but he has long-form you know 40
post or whatever 50 yeah
all right now moving on to a little bit
more like link building for Early's like
new sites I guess is there any like
specific plan that you would advise
folks let's say they're launching an
affiliate site and you know they have
say 10 15 pieces of content they want to
start promoting link building networking
in the industry do you have any I guess
direction on the link velocity anchor
text where the links go and just the
whole plan I mean I think link velocity
just depends a lot on your space
Google's got such huge huge data sets
and so they know what's normal for your
industry a site of your size a site of
your age I feel like using majestic and
looking at what that looks like over
time for a few sites in your industry
might be a good gauge in terms of how
many to build or how to go about it I
would honestly say in the early days of
a site you should probably treat link
building like you would in the early
days and raising capital for a start-up
which is
friends and family work your own Network
people you know with websites that are
about the space trade favors with people
in your industry but I hate you know
will write an article link to this page
of yours you write an article and link
to this different page of ours that sort
of stuff can be very effective I would
generally recommend against buying any
links unless you can do it in a very
careful way
Google's Google's just getting way too
good at spotting that sort of stuff and
so if it doesn't look perfectly
editorial you're you're running a risk
if you're buying and then I would say
paying a lot of attention to the sites
that you're getting links from making
sure that they're topically relevant
right like if you're running a site
doing affiliates for I don't know a
local car dealership or somebody who
sells top to your construction equipment
or whatever it is if you're getting your
links from a mommy blog like it just
doesn't fit so make sure the place is
you're getting links from fit
contextually like it makes sense for
page a to link to pit to the site B if
it doesn't make sense then you know it's
not gonna make sense to a machine that
has a crap ton of data and as far as
like where the links should go again
let's say you have let's say it's a
little bit more of an established side
to say there's 50 pages and you know
there's a handful of links sort of just
distributed through the site typically
I've been like aiming for about half the
links to go to the homepage and the
other links for inner pages is that
about right or do you have some other
advice with it that seems to be pretty
normal I feel like most sites have
somewhere between 50% and 80% of their
links going to the homepage with some
exceptions I mean there are some sites
that are known for just one or two
pieces of content were those pieces of
content and get the vast majority of
links so I think that's another one
where you might want to take a look at
what your space looks like but I don't
think you're ever going to go wrong with
half and a half and by far the most the
places to link to that make the most
sense are going to be the home page and
blog posts those are the pages that tend
to get the most links by far you know
your your random about Us page or you
know company product page
maybe not so much yeah okay got it
and I think you need to highlight what
you said like certain pages will get a
ton of links because maybe they ranked
number one at the right time when the
trend was hitting and everyone's paying
attention and then all of a sudden a
bigger blogger links to you and then all
the people that read that blog link to
you if they have a blog so you could end
up with these anomalies and they're like
exactly exactly you know maybe you maybe
you have the coolest 404 page in the
world and so your 404 page gets all
these links from all these 404 cool 404
page roundups and you end up with more
links on your 404 then you have on your
home page there's weird outlier
scenarios like that but generally it's
the home page that gets the most all
right so we'll start winding down a
little bit but I'm curious have you had
like any penalties I know you started
like way back in the day so we were a
little loose and free and you know maybe
some things got out of hand so just
curious all's good SEO is have some
stories totally yeah so I've had my own
personal sites penalized a couple of
times in most cases I just ignored it
and they eventually went away I really
don't like disavow files I think they're
largely unnecessary and there are some
exceptions but I've also worked with a
bunch of different clients over the
years who've been penalized and you know
almost always it's linked related they
did something shady back in the day if
they got a manual penalty because they
have too much anchor text in those cases
if you have a manual penalty if it's
linked related anchor text related like
you're gonna have to do some cleanup and
do it to sivaiah a disavow there's
really no other way around that but yeah
it happens yep and I think I've had a
little experience with well just manual
penalties where like you know everything
was up and smoke basically burned to the
ground
so just had to move on at that point but
yeah disavow files like I've I've used
them especially with like negative SEO
have you seen negative SEO be effective
where you
you have to take action so I ran some
tests oh gosh it's probably been six or
seven years now using fibre and you know
me and a couple of friends in the
industry sat down we like look can you
do negative SEO is this a thing should
this function Google swears that it
doesn't work and we think it does and so
what we came up with was look Google
machine learning at scale one of its
weak points is that it's trying to
filter out signal from noise and if
something looks normal it looks normal
so what would normal look like for a
website that's trying to build links to
help themselves ranked and what we came
up with is they're gonna go after the
same keyword or set of keywords and
they're gonna do it consist
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