in this video I've got a recording of a
Skype call that I had with fellow
youtuber Darrell Wilson I'm sure you're
already familiar with Darryl's channel
but if you're not do go check him out
I'll put a card up now and you'll also
find a link in the description Darryl
has a channel all around WordPress it's
full of tutorials and how to's and
guides and other stuff that's wordpress
related I'm sure you're gonna find it
really interesting he's got way more
videos than me and yeah I'm sure if you
go over there you're gonna learn
something that's gonna be useful Darryl
is currently traveling the world he's in
Thailand right now but he was kind
enough to give me an hour or so on skype
but this morning and during the call we
spoke about lots of different things
including how we got into WordPress how
we learnt WordPress how we've made money
out of WordPress and we share some ideas
with you on that on how you can sell
WordPress services or how you can use
WordPress as an affiliate marketing
platform we then go on to talk about
some of our favorite themes and plugins
there's a few other bits and bobs in
there as well and I think you're gonna
find the whole cool pretty interesting
anyway I think that's enough intro let's
get into the cool for a start I do
apologize for the quality it is a Skype
call I've done my best to make it as
good as I possibly can but yeah it's
Skype what can you do anyway roll the
tape
so in this video I'm up we have
Dell who's currently traveling the world
is in Thailand at the moment we thought
we'd have a chat together just talk
about our experiences with WordPress how
we got into WordPress how we make a
living with WordPress and also some of
our favorite things when it comes to
WordPress like themes and plugins and
all that kind of thing so it's pretty
unscripted we're gonna see how it pans
out hopefully there'll be some good
content in there for you guys
I've never honestly there are every
script yes better just just a let it
flow so um I believe you're familiar
with Darin he's got a very popular
wordpress channel you'll find links to
it in the description if you want to go
check it out I strongly recommend that
you do umm but yeah let's get started so
Dara how did you get into WordPress well
you know I was working just like
everybody else you know I had the
nine-to-five job and uh you know I was
know making money online doing this
doing that and I'm kind of thinking to
myself you know why why can't I do this
you know if everyone else is doing it
why can't I but that's not really how I
got started I first started basically
hiking all the time I always went on a
hike hikes with my dog and I wanted to
record these hikes because I just didn't
want to put it on Facebook or nothing I
wanted my own personal bio mom personal
hiking blog so I kind of been Chertoff
and I started learning WordPress I
started basically recording all my
progress and pictures on these these uh
these hiking trips and then I kind of
you know did it did it once I put on
Instagram and my friend was like hey
that's a pretty cool website and how'd
you do that and I'm just like whoa I use
this WordPress and they're like well
like how much is how I'm gonna take you
how am I like do you make them how much
does it cost and at that point I'm
sitting there like do you want to buy at
the web site you know do you do do you
want me to make one for you and and
eventually that started to happen very
slowly and fairly and it was just word
of mouth and then I started I started
building websites full time for I want
to say about two years two years I
started building websites full time and
I decided to basically end my job I quit
my job I started focusing more on
WordPress and then basically that was it
and then basically after I started
building sites for people I realized
that there was a market to teach
how to do this because sometimes these
people I didn't have a big budget and I
understand that sometimes people just
can't afford to dump out money on a
website so I said hey why don't I make
videos on them and they can watch them
and maybe somehow I can get a cut or
something like that and that's when I
discovered affiliate programs where
basically I refer someone to the service
they purchased it and then I make a
commission and that's what I started to
do and eventually the commission rates
went higher than what I was making for
who heads aside so I was like alright
maybe I'll change the market here you
know and then basically I ventured off
and I started doing the affiliate
marketing full-time and that's basically
what I do right now to this day
yeah and by see much that's free
teaching people on YouTube how to do
stuff with WordPress yes it was it was a
lot of trial and error I mean of course
when I started I was terrible you know I
would the sites I was making looked
really bad but to me they looked amazing
yeah and I had to ask people like how
does this look and they're like oh bro
looks horrible and I'm looking at them
like bro you're just you don't know
anything you know yeah III think that's
happened to everybody where they made
bad sites when they first started and to
them it was like like the Holy Grail
yeah but to everyone else is like it
looks terrible so yeah that's basically
a good summary a good summary okay well
that's just a learning curve when it
comes to WordPress you start off from
you build something it's not great and
then you just get better and better
better than all you do yeah what about
you I had a very similar kind of story I
mean I started back a long time ago when
I had a we had an internet marketing
agency in London where we were helping
people with their Google AdWords and
their SEO that kind of thing
and quite often in order to make the
google adwords work effectively we'd
have to make changes to their website
and a lot of people's websites back then
were pretty bad and they were pretty
hard to actually make changes to they
would bespoke you'd have to get in touch
with the web developer the web developer
would say yeah I can make those changes
but it's going to cost 500 bucks so that
kind of things like well I just want to
add one landing page what are you
talking about whereas we had a web site
which had been set up and the guy who
set up our web site was using this
fairly new thing at the time called
WordPress and it just blew my mind how
easy it was to set up a web site that it
was free that there was all these
plugins and themes that you could use to
add extra functionality
whereas you know say other other web
people other people's websites were
bespoke and if they wanted to do
something it would always cost a lot of
money it would take a lot of time
whereas with WordPress you'd get a free
plugin and you could do SEO or you could
add social sharing buttons needed to do
so I got to a point where I was getting
so frustrated with these clients where
their AdWords wasn't working because the
website was rubbish that I'd say look
let's just get your WordPress website
would be much easier we can do that and
kind of went out from there and I then
similar to you
I left that business I sold it for a
while back and one it's time to do and I
was still into WordPress and I was also
into YouTube I was just watching a lot
of youtubers and I just wanted a bit of
that YouTube action and I thought well I
can come on to do I'll do worse and
YouTube yeah so set up the channel and I
started doing WordPress videos but now
it's kind of has moved a little bit more
into affiliate marketing and using
WordPress as a great kind of platform to
do affiliate marketing with as you
people see it on my latest videos and
that's kind of anyway we've kind of fall
into it in your site though the the best
rooftop box video that you had I mean it
proves it it proves that you can make
the site and it can make money you know
it takes a lot of time and work you know
everyone out there watches these videos
or they're making like five thousand
dollars a day that's not realistic you
know but something where you're starting
off and you build it slowly over time
like you you know you're making your
first month you we're making like just
like five dollars or something like that
there's nothing the second month your
video you're you're hittin like 50 bucks
yeah in this month you're getting like a
hundred hundred dollars and now it's
kind of like wake up next week twenty
dollars three hundred dollars you know
that's right I want to hope to I want to
get up to four figures are then and sell
it and also you mentioned selling
WordPress services that's something that
I've done quite a lot of as well where
meet people that want websites and you
can create them our website fairly
quickly by using off-the-shelf themes
and plugins without any bespoke
development so I've done web post
services as well but you know affiliate
marketing is where I want to be because
you know clients they it's passive
income its passes right yeah yeah you
want clients can take up quite a bit
your time you know the website has a
problem in the early hours of the
morning or when you're on holiday and
they need you so I still do have clients
which is fine but affiliate mark
is definitely the way to go but I think
you know one thing also go on so one
thing also I just want to say is is to
anyone watching this don't feel afraid
to fire your clients because when I
first started I would take any client I
could and that was my biggest problem
because I realized some of these clients
weren't rational they were just like I
want the next Amazon I have five hundred
dollars and I would like alright okay
I'll put you the site you know I'll do
it and I realize I'm like this is not
practical and and I realized that as I
was developing I says look it's okay to
fire clients just tell them hey you know
what you're wanting it's out of my scope
but I can't do this for you but you can
go to this agency and making off you
know they can probably help you out with
it I just can't do it with your budgets
and I don't have I mean you can't say I
don't have the expertise but I'm sure
you've run into clients to where they
were just nightmares I mean I have
clients that would call me and just tell
me about their problems and this and I'm
like look I'm not a therapist I'm just
I'm a web designer no they want you to
fix all their business problems and
whatever you know can you get me more
yeah yeah the problem no yeah no I have
fired many a client in the time my pen
yes but it's a it's actually quite hard
to do it because you think it's a
business person you need all the clients
that you can get and but some are just
toxic and they just take up more your
time and they they're from the ones that
don't want to pay hardly any money as
well in my experience a business I've
often found the best clients are those
that don't balk at any price you know
you say is going to be a thousand and
they say yeah that's fine
and then you don't hear from them you
get you do the job and it's easy and
whatever where's the guys that say oh
can I have it for 500 they're the ones
that are going to give you all degrees
yeah yeah the hard part is dealing with
the clients that's the hard part you
know yeah I get it
I've been there but I think it's great
WordPress as an enabler that if people
wanted to think about quitting their own
job and and offer a service like
WordPress you don't need to be an expert
in development you know it's perfectly
fine to take a theme that's already out
there and use that and use plugins and
and and all that and just put it all
together
and sell that as a service that's fine
as well and then if you need help and
you get stuck with something there is
often resources out on the web that you
can use or or use to hire someone like I
a couple of developers I use if so I
think it's a bit too technical and I
it's out of my yeah I pull in a
subcontracted to be able to plug those
bits but when I first started telling
WordPress and you probably the same I
wasn't an expert I kind of knew a bit I
knew how to install WordPress and
installed a theme and then the rest yeah
it was all a bit kind of winging it as I
was doing it and and it'll turned out in
the end I learned a lot of things like I
did a job for one client and they
basically wanted everything they were a
health center and they wanted time
tables for all their activities they
wanted seating plans for the events that
they sell to people can pick seats and I
said yeah WordPress can do all that and
ended up installing like 50 plugins on
this site and it just you know fell
apart and so you do live and learn and
that's all part of life and business and
growth and all that kind of stuff but I
want to take these if you know how to
set up a wordpress site then you're
halfway there and if you go out and you
start selling websites and and in the
beginning you can't charge a lot you do
have to just kind of just get a few
sites under your belt don't you so
you've got a bit of a portfolio but at
the end when I'm what still some sites I
think the last site that I sold again
using plugins and themes I sold for over
10,000 for the site and you can I think
you know when you get to a certain level
you can charge a lot of money to set up
a wordpress site and put the first site
I sold was obviously for about 500 but I
think thinking about doing a business I
think being a wordpress set her up kind
of person is a perfect business to get
yeah I've had viewers say the same thing
where they say that's just like your
story where they first starting doing
him for like five hundred to a thousand
dollars and now I have viewers are
saying bro I'm charging five to ten
thousand dollars a web site and there's
an art to it you know it's you have to
pick the right clients you have to know
where to market you have to know where
to go because if you just go on Fiverr
and so you got a service yeah it's like
yeah yeah good luck oh I think we lost
our I'll let it this pin is the toy line
internet connection
let me call him back oh you back okay
I'm back is that good yeah I know you
froze there for a minute I don't know
it's the internet in Thailand maybe he's
a little bit congested
okay the last the last few minutes I
dunno what you said because you froze I
said about the selling on selling on
Fiverr and then um basically you have to
know how to present yourself to get the
price you wants you know professional
image something that's you know
something that you would want to pay
saying hey just got really professional
I think this guy knows this stuff and
that's really that's really where
selling comes in I mean WordPress of
course is the basis of it but learning
how to sell and present yourself
that's basically how you make money
that's really how what it comes down to
is presentation so it is yeah and I
found out whenever I was telling where
PI services I never sold them online I
sold them locally to people local and
I'd go to networking groups and that
kind of thing and just meet people and
talk to people and share my story and
that was generally enough people will
buy from you if they like you and if if
you can help them generally people have
got a problem and they've probably had a
bad experience with the web developer
most people have paid a lot of money for
a website and it's not delivered and if
you're there and you can emphasize with
them and say you know I've seen that or
I've been there and I've done that and
you know have you heard of WordPress is
the great thing about WordPress I was
found this was a great selling point was
that if whatever reason me and you can't
work together anymore because it's not a
bespoke site because it's WordPress you
can easily just pick it up and you can
find someone else who's into WordPress
of which there are thousands of people
that can and they'll take over the
website for you so you're not tied to
one company because a lot of people do
get stuck with a web divides a web
development company does delivered them
a bespoke platform and then they can't
get out of it they can't move away yeah
it's it's frustrating for them I've run
across that a few times and I've run
across clients who didn't even know
they're hosting credentials for their
stuff and I said well how can I help you
and they're like can you do this well I
need the credentials and that company
wouldn't give it because they owed a
bill or something like that or that's
usually how it ended but um yeah I've
definitely been any trial and error just
like you just
same experience the same experience I
think there's a lot of people out there
that haven't it's great and also a great
another way to make money with WordPress
is once you've solved the service you
can then continue the relationship with
the client on a support level or on a
hosting base yeah and that is the great
thing about this sort of business is you
don't have to keep getting new clients
because once you've got a client you can
then support them and charge them an
annual the--or a monthly fee to look
after them keep the WordPress up to date
keep it safe and secure do some basic
backups many little changes they need
and it's great way then of earning some
residual income as long as you keep the
clients happy which shouldn't be too
hard and you can sell them hosting you
know sign up for a reseller account with
a with your favorite host and then you
can just set up hosting for your clients
sell them support keep their site
up-to-date help them with problems and
changes and again you can charge some
good money for that and once you get you
know yeah you're right ten of those
clients under your belt then you've got
quite a healthy income every month yeah
you got if you got twenty clients you've
heard of them 200 dollars a month to
keep all that stuff updated I mean
that's you know it's a brand for doing
them in your pocket just for just for
keeping them in the loop and taking care
of their stuff updating their plugins
and I know a lot of businesses that do
that in fact that's probably the biggest
old mines is recurring maintenance
because WordPress you have to maintain
it you know if you don't know if you
don't maintain it
WordPress new version of WordPress comes
out a plugins not a plugins not
compatible breaks something happy fools
that kind of thing yeah so you need to
have the maintenance plan you need to
have it and you can tell them saying
I'll book to the site but I can all
promise you that if you don't have the
maintenance plan it will eventually have
issues so if you want to make sure that
your site's updated and everything looks
good everything's the way it supposed to
be you know offer a maintenance package
or something like that I've offered
several of those too for like maybe 150
a month or 200 hours a month and it's
gonna be you have to be very nice to
them you have to be very transparent but
you have to also put them in a position
where they're gonna have to say yes
that's like true yeah things will go
wrong if you don't have it and you need
me there I'll be there for you if you
pay me this I'm there for you if you
have any problems I'll keep your site
online you'd have to work yeah yeah yeah
and you know two thousand two hundred a
month that's over two thousand a year so
you don't need too many of them and then
you've replaced you your income
you were getting from your job exactly
exactly there you go just like in this
plan yeah so I mean we we I think
WordPress is a great enabler for making
money we haven't talked about affiliate
but just selling services I think is a
great I think it's great place to start
because I still do services for a few
clients not too many because we just
talked about how clients can take up
quite a lot of your time but I think
that it's a great way of you know
keeping yourself up to date with
WordPress skills and learning about
what's new and and finding new things
that you you may not have full of
because a client will say can I do this
and that will you know force you then to
do some research and find out how to do
it and find new plugins and themes and
and that kind of thing in it you know
there's some really cool stuff that
WordPress can do that you know you just
so much that you you're not aware of
half of it I mean myself too I'm always
trying to venture off and do new things
like open up new affiliate blogs trying
to do like a new drop shipping web sites
and everything I use WordPress because
everyone's like do you Shopify and I
says no I don't use Shopify cuz it's
very limited and I just don't want that
limitation on me to a site that I want
to generate a lot of money and stuff
like that so but I myself too I'm always
trying to experiment with new you know
new Facebook ads new e-commerce sites or
something like that and again you know
some of them succeed some of them fail
but in the end most of them are
WordPress in fact all of them are
WordPress so yeah I think it has to be
WordPress I mean I did a video a while
back on creating a dropshipping site
with WordPress and I had you Shopify
before but shop if I go it kind of
reminds me a bit going back to those
bespoke platforms if you will Shopify
you are kind of stuck with them and if
you want to move the app it's gotten the
same with it with Wix and those kind of
companies I think once you get on those
platforms it's very difficult to get
away from them and and change and move
if you need to and they're to be honest
so some of the themes that you use are
just so ugly I just I mean you've seen
some of the beautiful templates that
like WordPress offers and then you see
some of the ones that Shopify has and I
mean some sites are successful they make
a lot of money but the templates I've
seen for some of those slides are just
hideous I'm just like yeah I don't think
I could sell I don't think I can convert
with this layout you know and but then
again everyone has a different strategy
advertising too big a big part in it as
well you know what kind of ads you run
but that's just my experience when I
would use it
the site just doesn't look that good so
yeah and with those platforms it can't
start getting quite expensive because
you get the basic platform but then you
want to add a few plugins or whatever
they call them extensions oh yeah for
each one of those and yeah it starts to
add up
yes are just on Wix I saw a report the
other day on Wix that their sites don't
rank well at all if you have a week's I
mean it's it's it's it's doable because
like I don't even know how you would
access your cPanel like I don't think
you have access to the CPAP so closed
off you know it's just it's just
restrictive isn't it you know be
something you you're gonna hit a wall at
one point where you want to do something
and you just can't because of the
restrictions of the platform whereas
with WordPress you generally don't get
that because it's so well supported and
so well developed there is generally
something out there already that will do
what you need it to do yeah I agree I
agree okay so um we talked a little bit
about themes and plugins and stuff I
mean if you've got any hot themes and or
plugins that you want to share with us
today anything that you're using I mean
well I I recently did a video I'm the
new Brizzy page builder it's not a theme
but it's I mean today it's difficult
because now the page color is kind of
act as themes so it's basically like you
know it's like well there's a lot of
themes for element or but it's like
we're basically talking about Elementor
here and we're not really you know what
I mean like we're not really discussing
the theme cuz the page builder kind of
acts as a theme as well
the Brizzy page builder very promising
I've used both elements for and Brizzy
then I can say with confidence that if
Brizzy continues on the road of
developments although it's very slow
there I will say that their development
is very slow for the page builder I said
it'll be elementor's number one
competitor but element or it's extremely
easy to use the features that they offer
are just so dynamic so it basically
takes care of all the nook and cranny's
that you have problems with with other
themes Elementor can you know it can
definitely you know fix anything and
I've used all the page builders and I
can say with confidence that Elementor
Brizzy and of course Divi Divi is my
number one theme I love that theme and
then there's other ones that I have seen
don't use like I
I started using be verbal or back in the
day but I just felt that they didn't
really update it too much they weren't
really keeping up with the trends and
and everything with WordPress but I
haven't used it in in a few months so I
could be wrong about that but I did use
it back in the day and I was like ah
it's okay but I just feel like Elementor
is better
um they're a visual composer which we
don't talk about on the Darrell Wilson
channel right we we don't like visual
composer and I wish I really wish
because I get all these people coming to
me saying that like visual composer so
hard it's difficult dis and I just don't
understand to this day why people use it
maybe it's responsive maybe there's
offer features but there's way better
alternatives today than visual composer
and and I've just I'm just not a visual
composer yeah me neither but it is
packaged with a lot of themes I guess
that's that's why it's good exact
traction and you know you get by a theme
and it will come with visual composer
which you polish to switch out for
element or so even now you know today
you'd still recommend Divi over like
Elementor or something because I find to
be a little bit clunky and a little big
I don't know finder elements are a bit
easier to use and I'm a bit a little bit
more streamlined I don't I don't know
for for a business website for for
beginners I feel that the fluidity of
Divi is easier so you know making the
padding adjusting stuff it's all fluid
based so basically you don't have to
enter in the padding number you don't
have to do any of that with elementary
dragonoid oh yeah exactly with elements
or they don't have it yet Brizzy has
that right now
I think elements here will probably
introduce that in the future I mean I
think they have zoo because every other
page wheeler has it but um I do like
Divi because it's it's simple it's easy
for beginners like I can show someone
how to used to be in the one I like this
elements are same thing but it can have
a slight learning curve to it with like
the dragging and dropping to me I have a
comparison video with Steven Elementor
and I kind of showed the the
transparency with dragging and dropping
between both page builders and I just
thought that Diddy was easier however I
don't I don't recommend Divi for
e-commerce I think that they needs to
pick that up also for their for blogging
I would say elemental is definitely
better for blogging and for e-commerce
because you can design the you can
design the the product page
I like the blog layout for Elementor I
think it's it's it's cleaner it's nicer
Divi is still kind of I mean you can do
it with Divi but it's gonna require a
little bit more work so in my opinion
for someone who's just getting started
out I would use Divi for business
websites or someone for just like a 5 to
10 page websites something simple if you
want to get more dynamic which if you
want to use e-commerce you can use Divi
free Commerce but I think that Elementor
which is just a little better there
because it does offer more features that
Divi dozens and I do like the blogging
again the blogging style four elements
or two so it just really depends on the
top the style of job and also the
clients you know you can show them both
saying hey which one do you like and get
them you know see what they're cool with
or whatever but um but yeah I definitely
in services you could if you cut your
head and become a bit of an expert on
the theme like divvy that would be
enough then for you to create as many
client sites as you as you need
yeah exactly I do also recommend the
flats um theme for e-commerce I've used
flotsam and flotsam is it's it's one of
the top rated selling themes on in
bottle markets and I have a tutorial not
as well and you can design the checkout
page the car I mean you can design
everything and it's made specifically
for e-commerce so I do recommend it's
not as easy as a dip in element or it's
not is this fluid but if you want more
like the most functionality with
e-commerce it's definitely worth a look
I have two sites for flats um in the
past and it is it's a great looking
theme as well in terms of e-commerce and
working well with blue commerce you
you're absolutely right
yeah so if you're gonna choose an
element or theme who which theme would
you go for an element's our theme well
there is the you know it's funny about
this is that I find the free themes
actually more useful than the paid
themes because I have the paid themes
I'd used I used Jupiter and I use
Jupiter and I and the guys messaged me
and they want me to do or if you want it
but I just used it in I just felt was
confusing as his bro like I'm totally
confused like this is like the the
customizer was like a pop-up and I just
felt that this was too much
I'm sin bro you guys need to go back and
go back to simplicity
keep it's in
you know just keep it basic also there
was the flock scene which I used I gotta
be honest it was just the most glitches
team I came across I tried my best to
use the flocks team but it was extremely
slow and glitchy when I first used it so
I just I use it for about I would say
about a week and I just gave up on it
I'm saying guys this thing needs a lot
of work it's way too heavy way too
clunky way too glitchy and I've had
talked with other theme developers and
they said the same thing so I wasn't I
wasn't feeling like it was my host or
nothing like that
but but um as far as the themes for
Elementor or Brizzy or whatever page you
are using I do think that's one thing
that I'm gonna make a video on custom a
fight have you heard about it I haven't
no customer phone I'll have to check
with outline it's a free theme and it is
the first free theme builder with the
customizer so basically it's a theme
builder but not with the page builder
right oh I was yeah so I used it for
about a week and I was sold I was like
wow we finally have a real theme builder
that's with the actual theme customizer
settings not the page builder should be
I guess exactly because I in the video I
mentioned saying you know it could be
bad for SEO for your site to have the
theme builder with the contents because
you have no peach you have no header.php
file you have no flirty speed file so
how does Google know when your site
starts and ends it doesn't nonetheless
with other as you said that's the
problem a lot of these there's a blurred
line now between the theme and the page
builder where's the page builder really
should just be for the content elements
and the theme should be the wrapper
around the outside exactly so it is a it
is an underrated theme but it hasn't run
40,000 active installs definite worth
checking out
Astra afters very good as well yeah and
I do like tutorial an extra-high like
Astra what about ocean is that ocean
ocean wpe is also very solid but I do
think that Astra is easier however I do
like the features ocean MEP offers they
do offer more and they're in their free
version they offer a lot more of their
fevers in Astra but to make the page
settings I feel that ash was easier but
I do like the blogging module for ocean
WP / Astra as well so it just really
depends
I mean Astra and ocean of AP are almost
identical except Astra
I'm sorry Astra has better layouts and
templates
whereas ocean WP offers a little bit
more on their free version so it's it's
really up to it's really up to the
person to kind of decide you know it
there's very little differences I mean
there's probably like five to ten
features difference from each theme but
again Astra has more layouts so that's
something to consider if you want a free
layout so yeah okay I'm just thinking I
mean we've been in WordPress quite a
while I remember back in the early days
there wasn't any of these page builders
or any of this kind of stuff you you
were putting a sergeant yeah short codes
everywhere and trying to cobble it all
together and just going into text and
loads of code and just yeah horrible and
one thing I really used to like was X
theme did you ever work with X team I
used it and I I am I made a review on it
and I said that the abilities you can do
a lot with the X theme it's just not
it's not for beginners yeah there's
definitely there's definitely a learning
curve with the X theme definitely hello
yeah and I don't know if you guys but
they recently changed cornerstone quite
which is their page builder yeah
cornerstone yeah and they did a huge
update to it and they just kind of made
it really difficult I I thought they
made it even worse and it that theme has
become a mess it used to one of my
favorite go-to themes but nowadays I
still still we're clear of it what about
what about Avada talk about Avada
everyone know about why I have on is
number one and what do you think what is
your opinion I used avada for quite some
time so I probably couldn't comment I
usually a long time ago but I don't know
where it's at now I I do wonder that why
is it the number one selling theme on
theme forest
I just don't know to this day I just I
mean I I've used it and it's a back-end
builder and it's just it's I don't know
it's it's basically what Divi you it's
boomer with Divi 3.0 came out before had
the front visual pale the Builder that's
exactly what Avada is it's before Davie
it's before debut 3.0 and it's it's I
just I don't know I just don't get it I
it's a mystery it's a wordpress mystery
I don't know other I was thinking about
this the other thing I mean I used to be
a big fan of
envato and theme forest and that
marketplace and I thought it used to be
a great place to find work
stuff but nowadays yeah I just have this
finger that the theme is on themeforest
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