hey what's going on it's Doug Huntington
here and it's my pleasure to introduce
this interview that I did with Matthew
Woodward so this is super cool for me it
was a great honor to talk to Matthew
because when I first got started online
in 2013 well I didn't know anything
I was pretty green coming in I listened
to all the smart passive income podcasts
and all these different jumping-off
points and I was looking for tutorials
and trying to figure out how to do link
building and use different tools and so
on and Matthew had launched a site right
around that time at least this internet
marketing site that he still runs today
and he does tutorials he had videos and
super helpful stuff so it was super cool
to actually interview him talk to him
you know face to face via Skype we
talked about his start and SEO we talked
about white hat versus black hat versus
gray hat and what he thinks about it
we also talked about getting a a sort of
a quick start and launching a site on an
expired domain plus a ton of other
things so this is a pretty casual
conversation I think I may be able to
have Matthew on again in the future I
really enjoyed talking to him so if you
have any questions for him at all please
leave a comment all right leave a
comment in the description I'm sure
Matthews gonna hop on and try and answer
some of those questions and if he
doesn't get to him well we can have a
round two and maybe I'll bring him back
on the show so thanks a lot to Matthew
be sure to check out his stuff over on
his site links are in the description so
he also has a YouTube channel I don't
tutorials out there so thanks to Matthew
and let's get to the interview hey
what's going on it's Doug Huntington
here from niche site project in the Doug
show and I am thrilled to have Matthew
Woodward joining me today how are you hi
I'm good thanks for having me on early
start for me thanks for thanks for
getting up it's always a challenge with
a schedule and I want to thank you for
all the tutorials that you put out over
the years we
just chatting beforehand and I was like
I read most of the reviews and tutorials
that you had as I was getting started so
thanks a lot for that I know tons of
other people have probably mentioned the
same thing to you yeah yeah and you know
it's a two-way street and for many
people listening as well I've probably
read your stuff that stuff I got my
finger on the pool so we're all feeding
each other you know so thanks for your
contributions he equally appreciate that
and for the people that don't know you
what do you do Matthew and what was your
background um well I do a lot of things
right now
I'm most famously known for my SEO blog
my future UK started about 20 years ago
I was delivering newspapers and pay for
a server as into a competitive game in
and but my first website before YouTube
existed and I didn't have the vision to
build YouTube at that time because the
website was built for us to share videos
videos of competitive gaming not
anything like YouTube did so from there
I I've always had a natural interest in
sales marketing website my dad is a very
successful sales person in his own right
so I've just been applying a lot of
those business those offline tips online
throughout my journey I did the whole
corporate world had great success of
e-commerce there I'm heavily rooted in
e-commerce not many people know that and
it's has grown from their corporate
world sucks I was told I was too
passionate for the corporate world that
meant that I was - I like to say honest
with people read between the lines and
that eventually led me to building
affiliate sites of my own affiliate
Empire and
you know I built my first real serious
affiliates is a serious affiliate site
when it's making enough money to replace
your full-time income and that was in
2005
okay that's all I need to go to yeah if
you go to the about page on my blog and
even you might not know this you can
have a look at our site there and some
of the stuff I was doing in 2005 quite
interesting to to see the progress you
know across 15 years so yeah I've had a
long journey I've seen it all I've seen
it from before myspace existed until
when it died you know I've been building
website since before Google existed yeah
along the way I've seen it all very cool
yeah it's been an interesting journey
and I do in doing research for this
interview I was checking out your about
page and people should check that out
that's a very it's a great about page it
sounds like you're just telling me the
story and one thing I didn't realize was
how long you've been in the game so your
corporate experience actually puts you
right in the middle of some of the you
know big growth with the internet
e-commerce and yet can you talk about
that a little bit well when I joined the
corporate world they didn't believe in
the Internet as a sales channel and a
lot of the decision makers didn't
understand the internet didn't believe
in it is this any other so it was always
a fight to get anything done
for example integrate in and listen
email opt-in right simple things in in
my spare time fifteen minutes done you
know in the corporate world that's like
12 meetings six of which are in London
which means three members of the team
have to get trained to London an hour
and a half then you have the hour meet
in and an hour and a half back and each
time you do that that's cost like 700
pounds $1,000 and you know we did last
six times and yeah after a year of all
of that we deployed a newsletter I'm
like look I'm looking at our competitors
and like you've got not even even 5% of
the resources that we have and they
would
store minutes so we were always having
that internal fight and despite all a
lot I found great great success great
success for many brands and bunches of
SEO and well-versed in AdWords PPC we
were doing some deals specifically to go
viral on on a specific site that sent
our sale was wild we were using lots of
different we had a complete digital
marketing strategy but we always had the
handcuffs on us of the corporate world
so quite often when people see big
corporate companies in search results
are like whoa
scary can't compete with that that's not
true you you you you can compete with
that because the corporate world is so
slow and rigid and internet so fast and
dynamic you have a significant advantage
even if you don't believe you have the
resource to do so so you know that that
was a very frustrating part of their job
it's like you hired me to grow online
sales but you're not taking it seriously
like like so much red tape you know he
even got to the point where we had
virtual warehousing right like the stock
is all physically sat on the same shelf
in the same warehouse but the computer
system divides the stock and says this
sales team owns that stock the web team
owns that stock well I sold all of the
stock but because of this stupid system
I couldn't ship it because it belonged
to the sales team who hadn't sold it so
to release every single unit of stock
you had to print up a form the reason
why run around like three floors of the
building get signatures of three
different people entered like yeah
people paid for Next Day Delivery you
know like like what like I sold it just
get it out the door what's all this
in the middle you know
so that's corporate SEO corporate
digital marketing it's funny young do
you watch the US version of The Office
have you seen that TV and if I do I
don't remember any X I'm usually
thinking that's why you're so productive
I was gonna say there's an episode I'm a
huge fan of actually both the original
in the US version of the office
but yeah there's an episode basically
with what you described were like the
computer system the automated internet
like sold everything but the salespeople
in the office are trying to continue to
sale so yeah anyway small digression now
this is sort of counterintuitive but do
you have some skills that you picked up
from the corporate world that are
serving you well now in hindsight you
know I'm sure it was frustrating at the
time but I know for me I did about 10
years in corporate IT and it's like some
of the rigidity is helpful or management
and understanding the structure so did
you pick up any skills at that gig there
are things I learned that I couldn't
have learned anywhere else um you know
we had Million Pound AdWords budgets to
play with I couldn't have learned that
on my own money right so that kind of
and just the exposure to structure
organization process management that
their lessons are I think that a lot of
people miss in the SEO world it gives
you a certain level of business acumen
and you need that to succeed so while my
corporate experience was very stressful
to say the least and I mean like I need
to kill myself working there you know I
wouldn't go I wouldn't go back and
change it if you know do you want when I
go through it again
no but if I needed to go through it for
the first time again yeah do it for the
first time again right yeah actually you
put that perfectly I wouldn't go back
from where I'm sitting now unless I
really had to you know some bad stuff
happened but yeah but yeah going through
it the first time it's like like you
said there's lessons that you can learn
there are there are actually the other
thing is like you see people that are
ahead of you and you're like do I want
to be there
in 15 years and usually is no especially
when you when you like really distill it
down yeah how happy and it's funny that
you know there was one meeting I
remember and I can't remember we're
meeting about but they were our about
something I'm sat there thinking my
affiliate site makes more money than you
do in a year why am i listening to you
[Laughter]
yeah yeah and ultimately everyone above
was just corporate bodies stressed out
running around like crazy and
essentially doing things that they hate
doing so yeah it's something I've
observed in general in the world I'm out
of money earned doesn't correlate with
happiness in fact I've met a ton of
miserable rich people but tons of happy
people that are struggling you know so
yeah so it sounds like you were you know
still working the corporate gig and you
were dipping your toes and some
affiliate marketing so how did you make
that transition well I'd been building
my affiliate business part-time in in my
spare time
there's nothing easy you know like you
get home from work at 6 p.m. you get
something to eat quick 630 grind filter
2:00 a.m. and just make it happen you
know so take it for me to take the
transition from the corporate world to
full-time for myself was very easy
because I'd established income streams
income streams that were larger than my
corporate salary so for me the
transition was pretty straightforward it
wasn't easy but it did reduce any risk
and as also as I left the corporate
world I was constantly getting
headhunted so I knew that even if it all
didn't work out I could just pick up one
or two phone calls I have a job
immediately
so that that that that's how I did it
just just just one day I was like you
know enough is enough I'm out cool and I
was out in for the people my journey was
kind of similar to that as well although
I didn't have as much experience or
maybe as much success on the side stuff
but I got laid off so at that point I
had to make it work yeah that's a good
position to be in into that point yeah I
mean it was scary but like you know some
people are like I want to quit and I
don't have anything going and I'm gonna
you know figure it out along the way do
you what's your view on that I mean like
if you want it you want to sure you
don't like take it it's a decision you
know and there's no substitute for hard
work and grind like it just isn't yeah
this isn't so yeah that's it just just
bite down on the mouthpiece step forward
and roll with the punches all you can do
go and go for it yeah and it sounds like
maybe similar to me you're a little
risk-averse so you waited until you had
enough revenue you felt confident and
you were like okay we can do this and
it's not gonna destroy me I can get
another job if I need to so you just
you've waited yeah yeah and you know SEO
is risk management that's all it is so
that's you know you got you everywhere
everyone what what was right for me
might not be right for someone else you
know someone else might have a glowing
opportunity that they might miss if they
don't jump now
yeah and so there's a really a right way
to to jump you know but there is no
substitute for for hard work to do that
that applies for everyone in you know
across the board and you know launching
into sort of another segment is when you
launched your blog I think in 2012
filled with I loved it because it had so
many like actionable tutorials it wasn't
you know too long you know sometimes it
just drones on forever and you just get
to the point so you write concise
there's great tutorials and you were
also like demonstrating on how to use
like tools and stuff so I guess when did
you decide like hey like it it's
actually more valuable for me to start
sharing some of the knowledge I've
accumulated over whatever a decade or
something like that and then launch the
blog it looks like it was overnight but
you obviously did a lot of hard yeah no
yeah so it's a combination of factors at
the time Matt Cutts kept banging on
about forget link building quality
content blah blah blah blah blah and I
was like okay you know and we got you
gotta consider 2012 was a different time
in SEO you know we could just throw up
300 words three three percent keyword
and it's a buy some links from built my
ranks or something and boom boom done
that's a it wasn't you know so I was i I
was always listening to Google but
always doing the opposite of what they
said listen to them for once it see what
happens at the same time I was seeing
there wasn't very many in fact there
wasn't any SEO blogs that provided
tutorials you had like search engine
journal which provides more information
really to trials but you know Brian Dean
hadn't launched then you know the
authority hug I you and a red light
there wasn't really anything and and I
like quite active in forums and I was
sick and tired of just seeing just
advice it was just wrong you
know just wrong so I figured well why
don't I just record what I'm doing and
if I record what I'm doing I you know I
seen all these questions on forums and
this and that and the over I'm like well
yeah and then ivory down it's gonna
record it and then I'm gonna engage the
people with the answer and then answer
any questions you've got and that was it
that's what I did um that that was the
birth of the block you know and it made
$4,000 profit in its second month Wow
yeah yeah right
but all of that was essentially rooted
in connecting people's problems to a
solution and that was it
yeah it sounds like you work for Google
man yeah like and you know Matt Cutts
actually emailed me and said yeah you
know not a big fan of like content
spinning to tour you've got but I
appreciate it when someone goes right
down the middle and you've done that way
so that was a good good good validation
yeah yeah from from Google so they're
certainly aware that's that's pretty
cool and I think I was gonna say a lot
of the tutorials because you and I were
both gray hat back in the day actually I
don't know what you're practicing right
now which we questioned white hat gray
how what's going on with you today I
think that anyone that identifies as a
black hat SEO is an idiot
anyone identifies as a white hat SEO is
an idiot and anyone identifies as a gray
hat SEO is two types of idiot put
together the reason I say that is not it
like bigoted people but it for me this
is just an example of human stupidity it
is finest right Google is a computer
algorithm it has no morals it has no
ethics it's looking to be fed certain
metrics and off the back of those
metrics outcomes rankings right so what
how's black hat white hat gray hat or
any hat got to do with any of that
that is just humans needing to stamp
their morality and human asan something
that is not human it's a computer it's
an algorithm and somehow we've wrapped
that our humor humanity around that and
come up with these stupid labels right
like it's reverse racism and the problem
it creates is that if you're inherently
white hat and you identify as white hat
you you become ignorant of anything
that's black
or gray hair you take a kind of like a
moral high ground which means that you
only learn half of the game because
you've become ignorant of the other half
equally if you're a black heart you like
you think you're smart you think you
sneaky if you get yeah yeah stupid white
hats you know you become ignorant of
anything that's white hat
so all labeling yourself as black hat
white hat or grey hat does you stop you
from understanding the complete game and
when I hear people identifies that I'm
like huh well yeah so that's why I don't
believe in the labels or the hats or
anything there's an algorithm it wants
certain metrics give it the metrics
that's it yeah they think I like that
answer cuz I mean I identify as a white
hat but I it's just a simplification
right so and then what you the point you
just made is like we're going a little
deeper I know what you're talking about
because right let's say I go out and we
outsource but we reach out to a few too
few blogs we're like hey can we do a
guest post it's actually relevant and
all that but my if my intention right if
my intention is to get a link then
technically that's not right why no but
but I mean like that's generally okay I
mean that's kind of what we should be
doing like if I was like hey Matt can I
do a guest post or a sorcerer that is by
traditional labels black hat exactly so
but it's the number one white hat link
building strategy like it's stupid like
the whole thing all these people are
selling white hat link building services
well this is a white hat link building
service it exists like if once you place
because I label of like like knighthood
you know look at me I'm just I need
clean no it's for me it's like you an
idiot
[Laughter]
so okay I'll ask a specific question so
back in the day there were some of those
like software that could potentially you
know build let's say web 2.0 type you
know free blogs
GSA tons of them yeah so like well and
it's a great one I take it um do you
think those are still effective at this
point in time or is it like their time
is passed no as seen you know like link
wheel bandit those kind of things no gsa
search engine ranker has its place
the problem is gsa is too powerful and
people just go at it but you can tune it
for quality and relevancy and not volume
and it's this probably at your toilet I
should shout um but people aren't don't
use it like that they're still using it
like the old way no yeah maybe that's
partly my fault because I haven't put
tutorial um but like okay so one we're
gonna do the podcast and at the end of
the podcast I'm gonna ask you for the
main link but then also over the all the
links it's indicates to and those
indications I'm gonna build links to
with GSA to you know give them a bit bit
um so gotcha in and I think I mean you
highlighted it well I mean we're we're
going pretty deep a lot of people do
like these more technical kind of topics
but it's like there are tools that are
you know use them improperly can really
like damage what you're trying to do but
if you're restrained like maybe there's
some value in it I've long since I don't
use any of the hat or know how to use
those tools anymore but there was one
point in time that I did and yeah like
for certain things back in the 2013 like
period it was great you could rank much
faster than you could now so yeah yeah
and and well much faster than you can
now I don't know about that but you know
any tool it's like a hammer and a chisel
right if you give me a hammer and chisel
and a block of concrete at the end
there's going to be like a lot of just
rubble on the fall but you give someone
else a hammer and chisel and I'm gonna
carve a beautiful statue right they've
got the same taller st. the same
everything it's just it's use them
differently and it's
thing applies in terms of ranking
quickly um for competitive keywords yeah
it's more difficult but for like low
volume even medium competitive and
certainly featured snippets I mean you
can buy a domain throw the content up
and grab you first ranking up in four
weeks so I the more difficult keywords
yeah it takes more time but in general
yeah I'm not I'm not seeing a much
difference in speed of ranking as back
then and now I also build out any new
sights on expired domains I don't think
there's a reason to be building a new
site on a new domain in 2019 and unless
it's a branding move so that gives you a
huge head start in the search results as
well do you have any like tips for
people to find expired domains well it's
a minefield I find myself in spam Zillah
quite a lot they have lots of filters
lots of things they have their own spam
detection algorithm and their own score
that tells you how clean a domain is and
domain hunter/gatherer that's a great
tool if you were like hey I want I want
a domain it's got links from New York
Times you just tell it that and it will
go out and crawl in New York Times
website it will find any domains a link
to and then it will check if they're
expired or not and then return a list of
expired domains that are free to
register with links of New York Times
both of those are great tools they both
they both solve the problem in different
ways and they both do it in really
really really good ways now you should
do manual checks when you when you buy
and expired domains and for the most
part all I'm looking for is that the
anchor text profile is branded and not
heavily spammed with exact keyword
anchor text and beyond that
I'm not too worried if it's being used
is it like as a Japanese website before
or anything like that as long as I can
context profile is clean that's you're
gonna dodge 90% of the bullets looking
at now so yeah that's their the best way
to buy expired domains and sometimes if
you knew and you buying an expired
domain you might look at a price at an
auction and it's like two or three
hundred dollars and you might rely whoa
no it's sad that I was going to buy a
new domain what I encourage you to do is
look at the backlink profile and put a
dollar value on each of the backlinks so
a solid backlink from a reputable source
in or outside of your niche is going to
cost anywhere between two and four
hundred dollars you know if it's from
like New York Times or any big big big
way even more than that right so it's
you should always value a domain based
on its link profile and how much would
it cost you to acquire that think
profile and then you very quickly
understand wow this is a bargain I'll
take ten you know that's the way to go
about it very good and I think you know
I get that question fairly often like
hey can I build on an expired domain and
usually it's like if their person's
asking the questioned and they don't
have the skills to make sure they're not
getting Bamie web spam Mozilla will help
that person yeah so you do a lot of
tutorials on tools and I'm not gonna
make you pick any favorite I'll point
people towards the dozens of tutorials
you have on various tools and we were
just chatting beforehand about surf SEO
which I haven't used before and you have
a pretty cool like case study that we
can point people towards but can you
kind of break it down like what what
happened here yeah
so surfer SEO is a new they've been
around for a year now but they're
gaining more popularity and basically
what they do is you enter your target
keyword they analyze all our search
results they compare it against your
page and say this is what you should do
in order to increase your rankings and
I've had great success with it in many
different ways
and one of the things I shared recently
which is really interesting and
contradictory to most typical SEO advice
and if you're into long-form content or
10 times in your content or any of that
the pay attention
surfer SEO for my SEMRush review told me
that I had thirty seven thousand words
which I did and split between the
content and like nine hundred comments
was thirty seven thousand words and it
was telling me to delete thirty three
thousand words from the body so it
wanted me to reduce my word count from
thirty seven thousand so close to four
thousand which is weird right so my set
must review all it does is at least
sixty eight ways to do some rush so I
just went machete with it and reduced
that to nineteen that wasn't enough
because of the nine hundred comments so
I just deleted all of the nine hundred
comments none of which is good practical
advice but surfer SEO told me that I
needed to reduce a word count and I
blindly trusted it after doing all of
that and I submitted it to Google search
console did the index end within 24
hours it went to number one
we're always it before we're in the UK
number four and in the u.s. number eight
okay it's pretty amazing and within 24
hours so that is balanced yeah changing
on page is so fast so like how did you
determine in prioritize what you were
going to remove I didn't go but you know
apparently google counts updated content
as content has been macheted you know
that is in this is a video of a show you
exactly what I did and why I did in I'll
show you the surfer SEO reports and the
ranking and I made a video of the whole
thing so you can you can go check that
out
but yeah the results like rapid that's a
commercial keyword that's a money
keyword that that's a you know a
bottom-line change in ranking yeah it's
it's uh yeah it's so interesting like
we've gone so far with like the
long-form content because I have some
that were whatever you know twenty
thousand words and then I I didn't use a
tool like that but in one case I would
like reduced it down split it up into
other content made it more consumable
and like the rankings went up front on
all of them not exactly yeah I'm gonna
do the same thing on my e-commerce SEO
post right now it's like fifteen
thousand words instead I'm gonna move it
so it's ecommerce SEO is the main page
and an e-commerce keyword research in my
ecommerce link building the e-commerce
work you know different categories so
then the e-commerce SEO will become the
main page linking to the sub ones and
that's to measure the impact of that you
know Google's looking morphus specifics
and relevancy and long-form content ten
times leading content skyscraper any
Content all of that goes against the
grain of what Google's looking for right
now and that's a pivotal change when do
you think that came about I think it's
come about in the last year the medical
day I saw the medic update as a way for
Google to get more specific results for
voice search and in order to do that
they need to return not ultimate guides
but specific answers to specific queries
so there are places where big long-form
content does have its place but I think
it's been used in the wrong way right
now
and I encourage anyone who's ranking on
the first page of Google right now and
you have produced long-form content ten
times about skyscraper content or
anything like that go plug it into the
surfer SEO trial and see if they
recommend reducing word count and if
they do just give it a try if it doesn't
work out you can just paste the words
back in and update it right let's take
it back up but the I mean that's a
revenue bottom like it's only keyword
you know and you know we've seen Google
react to things like FAQ Rich Snippets
really well you know you can add FAQ
Rich Snippets to your page submit it
into Google index and almost instantly
and I'm talking like many people have
seen results within twenty or thirty
seconds they instantly get the FAQ rich
snippet in some cases it also moves them
up the rankings and in some cases it
allows them to win the featured snippet
it's a change it takes what three to
five minutes of writing submit it to
Google and the changes live almost
instantly so we're seeing some very
interesting stuff this year mm-hmm and
and and Google's reliance on FAQ Rich
Snippets somewhere in around March or
April I tested him last year when they
first announced and they weren't it was
like yeah not worth the effort then I
retested him I like bad well what's
going on here turn the volume up on that
and again I think that's in line with
their effort to win the voice search
market update interesting changes yeah
be be more specific that's the sort of
direction that seems to be going right
now and I with the FA cues and stuff
like that luckily I have videos from a
year back or more where I was like hey
this is a great way to add content you
can like just go to forums like pick
questions go to answer the public blah
blah blah and yeah like start putting
those in and now it's at the FAQ
structured data that's the important
parts and it all pops up in
in a search results as well in there
anyone needs help doing that there's a
tool on my site you literally just put
the the question and the answer in press
a button and it generates all the code
great do that I will point people
towards that and I want to get into
you're speaking a little bit so I don't
know when you started speaking but is
that a still a big part you still speak
very much or was it a period of time how
was it like 2013 speakings been an
interesting adventure no two conferences
are the same we've done things like wow
really really crazy stuff like we had
private party in Caesars Palace with
wu-tang clan we've had Snoop Dogg DJ
parties we've done like really like
weird like mind-blowing like there's all
these like weird events that go on
around a conference I've been we've had
iron chefs cook for us we've had I've
eaten like $500 steaks because all the
companies invite you and you know we
want to smoosh and stuff so that side of
the conference's are really good because
you get to do things that you just like
you just couldn't do you know normally
speaking I actually don't enjoy speaking
that much
it's very one-way from a stage it's very
like you're just going to sit there shut
up and listen to me right and that's not
how I built the blog you know I built
the blog as a two-way conversation
answering people's questions and and
trying to elevate people and it's very
hard in a conference to elevate of
entire audience
you know because everyone's facing
different problems everyone's sites are
in different positions they're like so I
don't really enjoy giving the talks
I'd much rather be sadly on the computer
on the front and just have one person
come to me one after another you know
ten minute consultation but had much
rather sit there and do that for eight
hours and give a 30 minute presentation
that's not how conferences work I've
asked so many conference organizers can
I do that and like notice kind of stage
[Laughter]
so yeah yeah I'll be at Chiang Mai SEO I
think that's in like two weeks I've not
even started to presentation actually if
you record if you listen to this right
now it's gonna already happen hopefully
I nails the presentation
sure I'm sure how many times have you
have you done speaking like at
conferences more I've probably forgotten
more than I can remember yeah yeah it's
cool and I think every good SEO has a
war story some sort of penalty do you
have any really epic penalty situation
that you you can share with us yeah I
mean who do dodge penguin 1.0 right no
one dodged that bullet like I had a few
survivors but a lot of it yeah it's
heavy hitting man that that was a
pivotal change in the SEO industry and
yeah I mean I'm that me literally me
make tore breaks a lot of people wait
way back way back when and arguably if
you're not getting penalized you're not
trying hard enough
like like if you're not getting like if
there's you know when it's a big core up
day or anything like that if at least
one of your sites in your fleet doesn't
get hit you're not trying hard enough
like and there's so much value in having
a site that got hit because then you're
like right why did it get here and you
can look at things in ways that you
can't look at with other sites that get
hit you know you can find sites that got
hit but you can't see what was going on
behind the scenes you don't know what
changes were made and when and you know
you haven't got your finger on the pulse
in the same way so yeah I mean it
nearly every update I have some losers
and some winners and then you can play
with you go you got it I like that it I
think you to bring together some of the
points to you you mentioned earlier with
like white hat gray hat and the fact if
some if someone doesn't study the other
side they're missing the full picture
sometimes which I have a course and in
my course I have like pbn and gray hat
section which I tell people don't do it
you know don't don't do it however it's
pretty valuable for you to understand
because you may be able to you know pick
a little sliver of a strategy and use it
in a different way that no one else
thought of before and yeah like you said
it goes both ways
so yeah perfectly said and I think that
I don't know I don't know if I want to
have like a site hit every time but yeah
if you're not kind of on the edge of
like trying some interesting things yeah
I mean yeah yeah like no one wants to
see an income that they rely on get
wiped out overnight well I'm at the
stage where I've got so many sites and
so much inventory and it's just a
numbers game at the end like I said I
said earlier SEO is just a game of risk
management
that's it and one of the ways that you
can manage that risk it's a diversify
your site profile different niches
different certain sites that ups
different approaches to link building
and then then you know some of them you
can go all-out pbn so I'm just go out
reach so it's like you can keep a nice
balance you know and then it's
surprising what gets hit and what
doesn't you like what the this
piece of like generated site like
spun crap like went up and this went
down
stupid right so yeah there's value in in
having enough site so it doesn't become
a big risk to your business that update
hurts you if you're just starting out
that that is a big risk is something you
need to face it is something you need to
deal with it is possible one day
gonna wake up an earring can be gone but
that is a risk of the business that you
were where of before it happens
therefore just plan for it plan for the
worst when the worse happens well you
just go about your day like everything
every day so we're coming up towards the
end of time so we got just a few more
questions now in the last I don't know
black year and a half or so the medic
type updates have been coming down the
pipe here and basically it's hard to
tell from where I sit like what's going
on what changes to make it seems to be
more of a holistic just everything that
your that's going on with your site and
on her site so do you have any
observations from ice you have
observations out specific strategies and
learnings but I'm not ready to put those
out in the wild they're giving me
significant advantage right now however
I will sum it up the most people are
building affiliate websites or building
affiliate websites they like affiliates
and that's it what you really should be
doing is building a business and doing
all the things that our business does
that's the difference okay and that's a
shift in mindset and that's a shift in
how you approach many different things
yeah don't don't act like an affiliate
don't build affiliate sites build
businesses if you think about that over
over a coffee for 30 minutes you'll
probably have a list of actions and so
at some point you will like put out into
the wild some of the findings sometime
in the future maybe maybe not the list
of things I tested and experimented with
in a list of things that I do came from
that line of thought very good that's
cool I want one one clue every business
a phone number pretty strong clue nice
you know yeah and it's easy enough
together you know a phone number that
you know so people could figure that out
yeah and there's lots of other things
that businesses do the people building
affiliate sites don't yeah so what are
those things do them operate in last
question here so for people that are
just getting started maybe they're
they're making a few bucks or maybe they
haven't even launched their site yet
what advice do you have for them so I've
seen a lot of people sites over the
years lots of people I email me in
comments and can you look at this can
you look at that can you look at that
ninety nine point five percent other
sites that I look at the content is
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