hey what's going on it's Doug Pennington
here from niche site project and in this
video Chris Pearson and I critique and
teardown marie forleo's homepage and Pat
Flynn smart passive income blog as well
this is part of a series of tear downs
that we looked at so we looked at where
meets eighties I will teach you to be
rich the two that I just mentioned and
we also looked at our own home pages and
our sites in general so have a look at
DIY themes as well there's another video
and critique on that and niche site
project as well there's a lot of nuggets
and we go through a spectrum of
different sites here so you can see like
things that are done well things that
are can be improved upon we'll put it in
a positive spin and just a mindset on
like what we're trying to do on our home
pages so have a look at some of the
other videos on the channel subscribe if
you like it definitely check out the
description for links to the other tear
downs and let's take a look at those
sites now hey what's going on it's Doug
Huntington here from niche site project
and we have my friend Chris Pearson how
are you today yes what's up doing great
gonna be here again awesome awesome and
you're from DIY themes thesis and the
focus WordPress theme so any other like
quick intro stuff oh you just better
hope your page doesn't come into my
crosshairs because I'm gonna blow it up
let's do it oh boy oh boy all right
there we go oh my god so big he wrote me
animated in this case yeah oh wow I see
stuff like this here's the thing Marie's
like for me and she's like Pat everyone
knows who Marie is it when loves Marie
Marie is one of the most loved people
that I'm aware of and she does need to
do this just thing to moving Marie in
her home page what does this do does
that sell better all that does is take
longer to load it does nothing for her
she looks great even if she's not moving
she doesn't need to be moving I look at
this and I think the best that the book
is here thing at the top in pink
probably gets all the engagement I bet
engagement and I bet people
to scroll through this and kind of watch
the page I bet you've got if you did eye
tracking you would see that people kind
of do this stuff's have a okay probably
not clicking that keep going
still scrolling people scrolling fast
yeah just skip that that's not relevant
right now you know what that is
uh no that's not a variant like how is
that connected like I can see show so
this is a white paper that she wants
people to get but it's kind of presented
in the flow where it's disjointed it's
not compelling in this context it might
be compelling standalone if that was
like a featured box at the top of the
homepage instead of her picture which is
useless it would probably get great
engagement and drive exactly the kind of
you know you get people into your funnel
see here's the thing here's the thing
any of these big personalities they have
quite a few concepts that their audience
has latched onto and found helpful over
the years I have quite a few threads of
thought that are like their main sort of
intellectual assets you want to get
people engaging with these but they're
gonna pick the one that hat or one or
more that has the flavor that they're
looking for question is how do you do
this
well you I've learned recently I've
really started to come to grips with
this reality is that you cannot do it in
one visit it is not how it occurs that's
how we treat the website that we're like
oh we need to be exhaustive on this one
visit no no no no no real engagement
happens on between three and five visits
this is a crazy thing to realize so you
have to understand all you can do is get
a hook on visit one visit one hook visit
to piqued interest the second
interaction somebody has with you you
want you want to get them thinking you
wanna get them thinking about something
that is like your intellectual output or
maybe a product that you have thinking
about some asset that you have on the
third then you're trying to convince to
buy that's the persuasion the deep
persuasion when you want to undertake
that but that's the third visit the
third interaction I know from customer
data historical data on DIY themes
people don't buy till the third or
fourth visit it's just the way it is yet
I have for years tried to vomit out
everything on time in the first visit
it's just not effective right and that's
sort of what's happening here Marie
to scrap all this scrap her image scrap
that one call-to-action at the top get
her get people into the funnel get them
involved and then then present them with
maybe three things that might be of
interest and then getting picking these
funnels going deeper and deeper into her
little intellectual domain here that is
how you achieve engagement that's how
you drive this stuff effectively not
this what is this Marie doesn't need
social proof people seen her on Oprah
more animation yes with the TV no one
cares Murray it doesn't matter right now
get them into your main page
get them on an opt-in send them to a
page like hey this was all my cool stuff
I got this TV thing you can learn about
these concepts here I've got this this
white paper do this and then you can get
these results you know a little cause
and effect sequence after someone's
already taken an action to indicate that
they are interested in what you may the
concepts that you may be talking about
then they're primed to take an action
right now a Visser comes here they're
not prime to take any action now the
scene all this despair stuff I don't see
how this fits together Murray looks
important maybe I'll follow her on
Twitter close window with Oprah yeah
Branson they come up yeah Tony Robbins
she's standing on a on a step there he's
on his uh he's on his knees yeah all
right okay so the pretty a lot of stuff
going on simpler menu so I'll mention
that there's a simpler menu here's a
simpler I think it's probably more
effective click on that more link let's
see what that does yeah
just honestly what you see in this
pop-up should probably be her homepage I
swear to God I am not kidding that would
be a better homepage just what you see
on that pop-up menu that'd be a way
better on page we'll do the home page
first and I actually I hopped over here
because at one point well I got my whole
will start from smart passive income
account pads podcasts and I was like
this is just fantastic so I dove in
headfirst and every now and then like
any good artist I guess I would go to my
influence and then I would try and copy
all their stuff all right absolutely
so I was like he must have some stuff
going on but I went back the other day
and I was like there are so many options
here I'm confused there's a few green
buttons there's a few green things and I
just don't know what to do so Chris what
do you see and how do you evaluate this
well first thing I see when I'm looking
at your site or when I'm looking at your
screen pardon uh it looks like the nav
menu is a bit wide and not really
designed so so on the left side where so
start here you've got a click overlay
where that is overlaying the logo the
license plate logo there and that's
gonna create an overlapping click area
which is definitely not ideal it's not
the end of the world but it is an
indication that that was designed for a
very specific context possibly and isn't
super fluid in terms of the way it
adapts to different screen sizes that's
a common thing you're gonna run into if
you have a lot of items in the
navigation menu the question becomes how
do I handle this at different screen
sizes and what adjustments are going to
be necessary you know this is not really
related to a landing page but it sort of
is because this ends up becoming a
cascading thing that affects everything
else in your page but I have been huge
on navigation menus here lately
honestly this has been my topic of the
summer of 2019 and so what happens if
situation like this is if you have a lot
of navigation menu items like I said you
have to figure out how to accommodate
them in these different views but what
happens what we the typical approach has
been to just
get all into a hamburger menu that's
revealed by click as devices get smaller
couple problems with this approach
problem number one the navigation menu
requires more resources to be hidden
behind a click in CSS resources possibly
the use of JavaScript there's ways to do
it without JavaScript but almost every
implementation you've ever seen is going
to involve JavaScript and the the menu
is presented differently in different
screen contexts so for example on a very
small mobile handheld device it's gonna
be a vertically oriented menu hidden
behind a click we'll go into that in a
little bit this is gonna be a pervasive
theme through this little talk about
stuff being hidden by to click and how
that's no good
but second secondary to that you have a
vertical presentation in one format in a
horizontal presentation in another let's
say a visitor is standing in line at
Chipotle they read a tweet they go to
your site they are collecting visual
cues and things to fall back on the next
time they visit your site well if the
next time they visit your sites on
desktop and nothing looks the freaking
same they're not going to be able to
find their markers so there waive their
ability to do wayfinding to perform
navigation self-guided navigation is
massively massively affected by that and
actually it looks to me like the links
are not exactly the same between the two
there are actually different links in
the different menus so that creates a
bunch of HTML CSS and JavaScript largess
more than needs to be there that slows
down your pages and then you have this
differing scenario that creates
usability problems and it's a bad way to
do it it is the way we have done it
since 2011 it is a bad way to do it we
need to stop this because that practice
does not translate it doesn't provide
any sort of navigational crossover
between the various devices that people
might access your site from so that's
first thing that stands out to me and
like I said even the execution of it in
this case is not particularly good
because like I said that that those
links are kind of shifting mm-hmm ok um
I would love to see I know Pat has very
very good opt-in numbers but you know
when analyzing stuff
like this you can't just say oh well Pat
does this so this work for me Pat does a
lot Peck creates a brand it's like a
like an army that marches you know him
through his podcast you know him through
the imagery he's put out there you know
him through recommendations from others
people who say oh we love that and so
there is a lot to suggest listen to Pat
and so if he has a pop up like this pop
up in the lower right corner it's gonna
work better for him than for you because
he has a reputation that precedes him
and a whole lot of momentum if you're
just a random nobody you do what Pat
does all you're doing is slowing down
your site and presenting a pop up that's
gonna annoy the crap out of people yes
hundred percent I was gonna say like
this he's an exception case like in in
so many areas but yeah like if I tried
to do this stuff it just wouldn't work
out I mean not actually when I landed on
the page I was just like I don't know
where to go I don't know what I don't
know what to do but I think it becomes a
challenge right for somebody like Pat
who like you said he has you know
speaking he has YouTube the podcast
that's huge the blog is huge so like how
can how can a person like that like
navigate like can you have one goal for
your homepage look for someone like Pat
for Pat definitely you don't want just a
single goal for the homepage okay well
this is a great question I honestly I'll
go I'll break this down every bit of it
because I've been dealing with the exact
thing so number one know if your Pat
know but there are really you know his
challenge is how do I present what I
have in a very concise way that is fast
yet still gets me the results I want so
one of the situation that he's gonna
encounter in any successful who anybody
who's has a site that's been successful
over time so like I said people want to
join his list through recommendations
his reputation precedes him so that's
one action definitely wants people to be
able to take on his homepage number one
join the list number two listen to the
podcast that might be number one now he
probably gets most of his engagement
through his podcast which he's been
doing consistently forever
tons of listeners that's why he loads
the podcast widget on the bottom of the
homepage a lot of the stuff that's going
hey this is not a fast way
this is a slow clunky in my opinion
crappy from a technical standpoint
webpage but he's he knows that people
coming to engage with the podcast he
knows that people are coming to engage
with his income reports and he knows
that people are coming to engage with
his email list which is why he is asking
for those things it's also why he has a
supplemental navigation bar for
affiliate marketing he knows that that's
a passive income that's kind of what
it's founded on the blogging thing the
email marketing the podcasting now I
look at this now I don't know what is
selling for him and what's getting his
traction and all that but I feel like
the better blogging probably should be
their email marketing probably shouldn't
be there in this manner the podcasting
you know I think I think this whole sub
navigation menu is just there because
it's like aw crap how do I present this
stuff I want it linked from the home
page let's just throw it on there here's
the situation he's getting into though
it's got two navigation menus I've
already explained how they don't display
the same between mobile and desktop so
you got that bad that's not great but we
also have a problem with user psychology
here user psychology says that you
cannot give users too many options
they're not going to take any as a
result not good the only people are
gonna be clicking on stuff and this nav
menu are people who know exactly where
they're going when they get here
they're not gonna read all nine options
at the top and not gonna read the next
five mill yeah which one applies to me
know their their eyes are gonna go right
down to Pat's picture and the most
likely link that they're gonna click on
in this page right now is learn more or
the play button on the podcast at the
bottom I don't know his metrics but I
bet you anything that's true
I also think about in the navigation
menu is popular because about is popular
everywhere what's the number one thing
we want to do when we interface with the
machine we want to humanize the machine
about is how we do that so you know and
now so scroll down a little bit let's go
through this Pat's got a social proof
here as featured in I don't know that
Pat really needs to further legitimize
his stuff I think people already get
here and they already know it's got
another email opt-in there I feel like
that could probably be worked in better
especially since he's got the pop-up in
the lower right hand corner it's just a
bunch of resources for this you can do
it more simply this section this section
I think is worthless this let's find out
what works and these big things
these icons first of all people's
interpretations of icons this is by no
means like Oh consistent landscape
everyone sees this stuff the same way
false you know the little gender things
on restroom signs are about the only
thing we can agree on as a society I
don't think we are agreeing on those
well you know these these take up a lot
of space they're presented horizontally
here they're gonna be presented
vertically on mobile creates a
completely different vibe this is not
the cheapest thing to convey within the
context of this design it just feels
like this a shoehorn in there to give
like a cool thing but all I look I look
at this something is it effective does
it slow down the page the page load time
does this stuff really need to be
presented contextually right here in
this way my answer now is probably not
and this will ring a bell with you give
them some of the stuff we've talked
about with focus recently and that is
instead of just this oh I have all this
stuff to offer let me throw all this
crap on my homepage no that doesn't work
it doesn't work it might satisfy you
because you're like oh I covered all my
bases the problem is nobody uses those
bases in that manner you need if you
want if you have a lot of deep concepts
that you want people to connect with the
best you can do is introduce them to the
funnel on your site where they can go
deep on this concept but you don't want
to muddy up a homepage with too much
information about this stuff that's
probably got I would venture so now he
is he has a huge breadth of work he has
accomplished a ton over the past decade
on the internet he has a ton of content
ton of value there's no doubt about that
his job and what makes this tough is
he's got identified the three or four
things that are really gonna appeal to
people and he means to build his
homepage around that like these recent
posts absolute joke should not be here
should only be on the blog page not here
there's no point to having them here at
all all it's doing is massively
increasing the page load time also
massively increasing the total number of
requests necessary to serve this page
not good not good let's keep going all
right trusted resources that generates
money for him I think there's a better
way to do that
it could be packs recommendations just a
special page and that page would be
worth so much money it would be stupid
again
yeah he has it on the resources but yet
to have it on the homepage
it's like too much kind of like what
you're saying there's just too many
options it's just as too much here to
consume you can't even I might take away
from this homepage as well it seems like
Pat's important but I didn't take any
action I click the way went back to it
yeah right right and I think like you
hit a key point it and for me personally
like I don't have like a ton of people
landing on my homepage usually they're
hitting like an inner page because they
googled something and then at that point
they're hopefully in the final now that
we've worked together a little bit and
got like a little more focus on the site
on my site personally but you know it in
that way it's reducing the options where
someone's hitting the some inner funnel
area and then there's sort of like in
that silo of that funnel so yes yes
alright any anything else on this page
like I guess overall you were like
there's kind of a lot of options
resource heavy but pad is someone who
does need to give someone options to get
them in the right place so I need sort
of like top top recommendations like the
number one thing you would you're like
hey we gotta clean this part up yeah
yeah the min the menu options are just a
disaster he needs to get that down to
three or four I recommend four start
here the start here page could actually
cover most of the crap that the home
page covers I think I think how people
come to his home page they're gonna want
to see how do I get to the podcast
because I just know that's number one
concern for him he wants people on his
list he can have a big splash thing like
he has here to encourage people to sign
up to the list I do not think it needs
to take up the whole page and be this
big of an hero sort of splash so what we
we call these elements that just take up
the whole page to dominate the page have
come to be known as like hero type
elements and really this is associated
with a full image with an overlay but
that's that's a little bit too nuanced
for me it's just a big damn thing that
takes a bold page that's a hero
presentation the problem with those is
they don't translate well to mobile
devices something that's very big on
desktop actually gets pretty small a
small short rectangle on a mobile device
does not have nearly the same
I recommend I it's not necessary to use
all the space for one thing it just
isn't you can use the same amount of
space for the two or three things that
are super important to people and he
could already have you know people
engaging with that without needing to
scroll down through stuff without
needing to go through a bunch of
self-aggrandizing things he doesn't need
to do that anymore
that's the beauty of being uh
established and awesome you don't have
to waste time and resources on popping
yourself up
you just don't he could have a you know
uh citations page or something like that
hey look at all these places where I've
been featured you know I've been
featured everywhere and the page is ten
miles long so there's just other ways to
remix content and to send people down
that particular information funnel hey
Pat has cred go down this funnel hey Pat
has podcasts good on this funnel hey Pat
has an email list with all these
affiliate marketing stuff I know that's
kind of intertwined he could he could
get people engaging with him kind of
lead them through the path of engagement
hey listen win my podcast join this
email list you'll learn about this type
of affiliate marketing you know you
it's a establishing a process flow
rather than just vomiting all of your
credentials and resources upon people at
one time processes not options options
equals people leave and just for a tip
for anyone who's gonna like thinking
about this and kind of analyzing their
own site we are too married to the way
we think our sites are performing right
now I promise you no matter what you who
you are what you do what your proposals
are you can streamline and get better
engagement by reducing the amount of
crap that people have to go through
period full stop
this effect is applies to everyone
doesn't matter who you are streamlining
information flows produces better
engagement and better results alright
Chris thanks a lot for joining me today
this was enlightening and people could
find you a DIY themes anywhere else you
want to people note no DOI themes for
now or my Twitter if you're an absolute
savage careful but definitely check out
DIY themes and you know just this
message of simplicity and the the UM the
unspoken benefit of this whole thing is
when your website is simplified in this
manner it's easier to run the designs
easier your customizations are easier
stuff that breaks
easier to troubleshoot and fix I can't
tell you how many sites I see where
someone's like on my email forms effed
up and I go in to look at you can't just
fix the email form there's like 18
layers of entanglements because of using
Divi and this other page builder and
they've got this other stuff in caching
and they don't know how to undo all
these parts of the process so they can
make one intuitive change my whole thing
is keep it simple keep it intuitive for
everyone your visitors and by doing that
you'll keep it intuitive for yourself so
you can be adaptable and and be agile
and make changes that actually produce
positive results well said thanks Chris
thanks for having to do this fun thanks
again to Chris Pearson of DIY themes go
check out his blog DIY themes see what
he's working on definitely check out the
focus WordPress theme that's what I've
been using for the past several months
here it's fantastic I really enjoy it
and don't forget subscribe if you like
what you see on the channel here really
appreciate it leave any comments or
questions would love to see them in the
comments thanks
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