all right hey it's Doug coming to from
niche site project and I'm sitting with
Jim welcome Jim thank you and we
obviously coordinated today and we wore
grey shirts and shaped our heads so that
coincidence so this will be just sort of
a casual conversation Jim and I often
meet at this coffee shop down the street
on Wednesdays and we just talk about
niche site stuff and we have coffee and
we work a little bit it's good to get
out of the house I think Jim do you do
any work like right here yep so so yeah
it's good to get out of the house every
now and then and like talk to they're
keeping people so today the topic will
be content and where to get content and
essentially what happens and I think you
may at this point you've written a lot
of content on your site thousands and
thousands and probably 20 30 thousand
words or something like that and it gets
a little old and it takes up a lot of
time so just really gonna hire writers
because there's tons of them out there
and I think it's a good thing to do to
sort of scale up so can you tell us a
little bit about where you are with
hiring freelancers or just where you're
at right now well typically I've just
kind of been referencing some different
job boards up work things like that just
really topical searching you know
finding where the freelancers hang out
and approaching them that way really
kind of formulating an advertisement
just for my needs you know just for what
I'm looking for in terms of each
individual article and so it's really
just kind of
take it as it comes kind of scenario
where I as soon as I get a reply I'm
gonna reply back see what they want in
terms of payment or what they want to
write for and this time the other thing
so it's really just kind of a fly by the
seat of my pants figured out okay and
then well because of the fact that we're
talking about it right now I know it
hasn't gone perfectly so far right so
what issues have you found uh you know
it's upward is tough because there is
someone so many writers they're looking
for work that you're bound to come
across a couple less quality writers who
just want to make ten or fifteen bucks
or whatever you're asking in terms of
your article price and you know they're
quick and they can generate an article
and really crank out content but then
you're stuck editing for two hours three
hours is trying to get it to format it's
the right way if they're not angling
non-native speakers then you're
innovating up rewriting sentences and
fixing structure and all this sort of
stuff and so that's kind of been one big
headaches you know it's kind of the Adel
age-old adage and to get what you pay
for and so trying to stick within a
certain budget I want to you know it's
in my best interest to pay as little as
I can to get as good at content as I can
and so there's a kind of this that's
mixed where you're eventually gonna
cross and find that sweet spot so yeah
now the biggest problem right now is
just finding a good content and people
who want ongoing work right because I
have a lot of keywords that I want
written for I don't mind writing but now
for this site I've got well over two
hundred keywords that I want written for
okay
that's a lot of content so okay so you
basically spend hard to find people that
write well and you're even willing to
pay more rest you're having trouble
finding the right person and all the
stuff that Jim was mentioning before
it's not hypothetical right you actually
hired some keynote and you kind of
headed for a couple hours and it
probably would have been almost the same
amount of time if you just playing rid
of yourself right no
and at the end of the day you are
getting thousand 1200 words back and so
you get a lot of content you kind of
work with it but it ends up being like
play-doh you know it comes out of the
can it's just kind of sitting there in a
blob so it's up to you to kind of mold
it and shape it into the form you want
and get it up on the site versus I have
worked with a one woman recently and she
made some really great content but it
was it was more expensive than I really
wanted to pay especially why I'm talking
about a couple other keywords you know
it's struggling that out they're gonna
pay thousands of dollars right that her
prices but content was good I had to
format it and my links in their answer
places and I get publish it looks like
two hours or two articles took me two
hours probably a person's water took me
two hours from some of the lower quality
writers sure okay so if you could do
we're sorry if this scenario was perfect
how would you I guess sorry this is a
horrible forum question but basically if
you could have it an ideal situation
with writers what would it be like I
find maybe three four writers who can
generate great content and produce it
fairly regularly at a good price and
that's something I'm still kind of
struggling with too is finding the right
price to pay for good quality content
the woman I work with recently wanted
$15 for five hundred words and so it's
really as we all know you want to start
out reading some competition you have to
generate more content and all this and
so it's really I'm shooting for that
thousand word spots though okay
thirty bucks for it articles right not
really the wheelhouse okay and then so
that if my math is correct and correct
me if I'm wrong the math that would be
three cents a word right before a
thousand word article was thirty bucks
which you did say okay so that's a good
like baseline to talk about and start
the conversation because it all comes
down
- right the budgeting aspect right
because you want the best quality or
actually you would settle for like
pretty good quality sure most likely
sure so it's some pretty good quality
you don't have to spend too much time
editing and for a reasonable price which
I think like a reasonable price for a
writer is probably like a thousand words
for 20 bucks I usually pay less than
that more like a thousand words for like
say fourteen to seventeen dollars
directly writers will also sort of relax
on their pricing if you can give them
like going work right what they don't
like is looking for new jobs all the
time right so then they're just wasting
their time looking at all the jobs on up
work so if you could give them
consistent work then they're pretty
happy sure so if you lay down a
situation where you know you would ask
for two articles a week for like a few
months a lot of people would be really
happy with that and they would come down
to the price sure I have a good meal out
to the young woman I've been working
with one more than I really wanted to
pay and I approached about them I asked
her what her prices would be for a ball
quarter you know I gave her a couple
hundred keywords or standard when I was
saying I'd send her twenty a month
expecting three to five articles back
every week and I would take them as a
comment pay as they come sort of thing
and so I would give her ongoing work and
that sort of thing in the hopes that she
would come down but I haven't she's in
the UK got else inside stuff right
okay so what did the other I guess I'll
just explain what I do and then you get
asked questions along the way
so I try to hire people that are
starting out their new to up work and
they want to get a good review
sure so and in all I send you all the
stuff and then perhaps share some stuff
with you but essentially in the headline
the title of the job posting I'll say
you know ghostwriter needed for a block
and then I'll put something like
basically five-star review or something
to that effect and note that it's a
trial job in the description it
basically what I want to do is test out
writers so you can spend time looking
over what they've written before you can
take a look at anything that they want
to tell you which may or may not be true
yes so I kind of ignore what they tell
me at one point when I first started
hiring people I actually interviewed
them and I realized that was like just a
waste of time and I was just used to it
from a corporate job like it makes sense
to talk to someone but in this scenario
it's just it's actually easier just to
hire them it's actually cheaper just to
hire them to pay them 10 bucks so I'll
put that job posting up I have a pretty
specific I just use a template right so
that's why I mean it's easy to use a
template you just fill in a couple
blanks but it says things like you know
this is potentially for work you won't
be credited specifically this is a ghost
writing situation I'll provide you with
the topic
English speaker and a couple other items
in fact I forgot the headline I also put
native English speaker
oh sure and really emphasized that if
you don't then you'll end up with a lot
of people that are not native English
speakers or if you know I actually have
started emphasizing American English
because my site
speaks in American English and it's
really important and even you know
someone from UK or Australia or Canada
they may spell like color with blue or
organized with the paths like small
stuff like that that also matters it's
cool you could be from wherever we
located wherever they want to be located
but they need to be able to write in
American English sure so that's how how
critical is it and title saying
ghostwriting
versus some other kind of writing
because I've been parts of or been a
part of other internet groups that kind
of perpetuate kind of this freelance
lifestyle and show you how to do certain
thing their blog writing SD already X Y
& Z blog writing and they say is easy to
get you can charge a lot more for SEO
writing right so we're kind of blurring
the lines between sure I really want an
SEO writer because it's it's all geared
for SEO what we're doing is I have a
keyword that I want to see X amount of
times and using some subheadings and I
want something knows how to do that so
I'm not stuck like oh you didn't do this
or you know like yeah XYZ and so again
you get what you pay for right a
ghostwriter they're like well write some
content yeah again probably goes back to
somebody just starting out who want to
work so I usually don't want an SEO
writer because they may or may not do
SEO how so I just wanted someone that
could like write so typically and this
is why I think it may work well for what
I'm doing so I usually
with like English majors or former
journalists or people that write is
their profession that are usually like
much better writers than when I ended up
hiring some sort of an SEO person sure
because well I already said it but I
don't know what they know about SEO and
it may or may not be wrong maybe they
are more than me but I have it specific
with I wanna do it right so that said
I've never put SEO writing or can you
think about SEO at all in fact I don't
even look now that you mentioned it I
realized I give them the keyword or a
headline and they write it try to get it
back
published then and I'm doing the kgr
stuff Jim's doing some keyword research
for me and I haven't told you yet but
like I publish like five articles
yesterday and they all ranks from like
20 to 25 Wow
and there ya know November you know
thousands of roaches sure so anyway the
point is the SEO writing I haven't used
it before in the headline and I think
just saying ghostwriter attracts like a
broader range that's true sure
especially if they're just starting out
like let's say I have a girl working
with me right now who I think she's
working on her master's and my creative
writing or something like that and she
just joined up work and pretty sure
she's never heard SEO before sure she
saw SEO writer she wouldn't even look at
ya so that's like the answer to that but
it test it right so it's super easy for
you to just like put two job postings
that are identical up and have one one
headline have
the other and then you could look at the
quality of the people mister and then I
would actually just test it and if one
sucks like don't use it yeah sure you
care for that job hire the other one
maybe okay so the other thing
good question with the headline and I
think across the board like testing the
headline it's like a good thing there's
the post and it takes a couple seconds
sure the other thing is the actual body
of the posting mine is pretty long and
it's descriptive I it's probably 400
words or so and if you actually look as
a freelancer the job postings in network
they're usually really short and they
may or may not be complete a lot of
times it looks like they're copy and
pasted from a portion of like an orc
char or roles and responsibilities or
something or that just to excuse me to
me it's sort of screams like the person
that's hiring doesn't know what they're
hiring for so I mean I've looked through
some job postings and they're pretty bad
so the whole idea is my posting looks
pretty good and at the very end I also
say I really like working with new
freelancers to up work a lot of people
that have worked with me raised their
rates afterwards and you know I'm also
interested in ongoing work so if this
trial works out I really want to work
with you and the other you know the last
thing to mention is since I've been on
up work for a while I have a lot of good
reviews as
okay so that may help me a lot so just
get people in it essentially I just I
mean you can do the same thing right you
provide good feedback you pay on time
and like provide good directions so I
also have templates for like the actual
article that they're writing I'm sure
and I just copy and pasted all I have to
do is change one title and then the rest
stays the same sure
I'm styled by the minutes right so
perhaps this has happened to you maybe
you hire someone you said I want this
article should sort of look like this
one and and then they submit it to you
and maybe it's you know thousand words
it was like two paragraphs right and it
just looks like a big wall of text right
well the style guidelines that I have
sort of take that mystery out so if you
miss it if they submit it and they
obviously didn't put in headings it
asked for I don't like to use semicolons
in my blog writing just just because
some pretentious person semicolons and
although they have the place so I'm just
like don't use semicolons and then
occasionally people will you send me
poems and a mic we go back and check out
the style guidelines use a semicolon
anymore you know add more headings break
up the text and then if they understand
that someone that I could work with if
they make a mistake it's okay but it's
more important they take the feedback
sure so all right I've said a lot what
questions do ya know it's kinda answered
a lot I guess the main thing was you
know finding quality writers paying good
price I mean those are the two big kind
of intersecting right theories behind
this whole thing and now having having
hired a ton of writers
hire three different writers now so it's
not a lot lot and so you're bound to
come across some people who are either
you know very very new but have not
written in the past and so don't know
how to do that or you know one of my
initial mistakes was just putting out
the order add listing on up work and
taking one of the persons that came back
and they're not a native speaker and so
with a lot of like very simplistic
sentences this thing has blue things and
this thing has red things and it was
just like oh my gosh so it's sitting or
anything it's like it's all the
information I can go find you just find
that in to reformat it so sure no the
main thing was price first quality yeah
and I think the I like to pay like fair
prices you know some people will try and
be you know be a freelancer up on
whatever it is that they're trying to do
you know they'll try and yeah for me I
did guest posting guest posting service
and people will try to negotiate with me
which you know I don't do so they find
somebody else but the point being you
can sort of lower you know Jim's been
showing this laughs where you know the
cost and quality meet and what happens
is if you let's say this is the cost
right here the quality you can lower at
the price if you find the people that
are inexperienced because you're also
paying them right it's still
transactional but you're paying them as
good reviews sure and house up templates
or reviews rights would never have to
think oh what am I gonna write for this
person this person I have like five
different like pieces of feedback that
I'm giving people in the past and I just
have like a space where I fill in their
name sure so it's just like it could
finally want this sort of applies and
put that in guess what it doesn't matter
if super close because most people don't
write good feedback either right most
people are very short and if I write
three or four sentences and use the
person's name - they're pretty happy
yeah what they could go back to so a lot
of times what I do is I'll post the job
and then all just go like for my a day
or two and then I'll have maybe 10 or 15
different freelancers to choose from and
then I'll just take a quick look and see
the ratings that they have any that I
broke jobs they have but really I look
at their cover letter and the questions
that I asked so they could lie about
everything else right cuz they can tell
you anything right right so they could
lie about articles they've written or
just anything about them their whole
resume could be false however if you
asked specific questions then we'll have
to write so I just keep it simple right
I don't use any of the stock questions
honest things like why do you think
you're qualified to write on topic X you
don't have to give away too much I mean
you could say trying to think of
something that's not - I've been using
like a metal detector example like I
don't metal detector out there but let's
just say like metal detecting you could
say hey do you have any interests a
super specific a problem wouldn't like
try and find that but we can ask things
that are relevant like that
the other things
are are you familiar with in quotes like
American English
yeah and are you familiar with it like
American slang and then they'll have to
like provide something answer sure some
people may say yes and that is not that
good of an answer but if they say yes
you know I grew up in like Cincinnati
and went to college somewhere and yeah
I'm really familiar with Americans right
and that would be native speakers yeah
so that's really good and then you can
pep I mean put in whatever else you run
it now one thing we haven't talked about
is actually the formatting part can you
mention you spend time formatting the
pose right so what you should do is
provide the style guidelines like I do
write a style guide line where you you
tell the writer how you want it
generally for manager so you probably I
mean I know you're doing other
formatting on your site images and stuff
like that but you can tell them like you
know short paragraphs put headings in I
wanted to be submitted in a word
document and you should be using like
heading number two and heading number
three sure
make sure there's a heading every 150 to
300 words blah blah blah you can make it
a specification sure yeah so then a lot
of times well for me usually I could
just like copy and paste it into for us
right and then it's like 90% formatted
right sure
so excellent yeah any other things you
think like hiring people or no not
really
I mean I think it's scary most of the
questions no and then as far as like
pricing I believe you could prompt like
for like for the trial articles all
usually
go for maybe like 600 800 words or so
and I'll put like a starting like bid I
don't know if that's the right term but
the price that I put is like 10 bucks in
most of the time everything that I
mentioned you'll be able to find someone
that'll bid for 10 bucks actually
probably find like 15 people that have
been Fisher hen dollars and then it'll
be able to figure out who you want now
the other thing that I've learned is
some people just want the review and
they're like I don't want to work for
that cheap because you know I'm a
journalist and they need to like write
higher paying jobs which I totally
understand and then other people are
happy too maybe there maybe there they
are a freelancer there in like Asia or
something and but I don't need to have
as much income they just want something
regular that they could count on so you
can get it for like okay sure
one thing I just think of is there a
better post type to have an initial or a
new writer write for you for like a
review post versus a informational post
oh um I haven't checked that out
I suspect the informational post will be
easier because it's just more of a
structured writing versus a review which
may or may not be something they are
used to doing so the information was
probably easier but not necessarily
recommended let's say you need like 50
reviews done right maybe
you asked me earlier it wasn't about
pricing it was some other it was before
we started talking it'll come back to me
maybe for a sec well it's kind of what I
did with that woman that I start working
with a center to articles right and one
was a review and one was an
informational post just to see how she
go about doing each right and then you
can kind of curtail it from there
tweak and modify your expectations for
her right or your writer worker it
happens to be after you see them and
then go in the future I'd like you to
look like X Y Z this way this way yeah
and I remember what you're asking about
so the really good writers and this is
happened with the journalists that I've
hired they will ask where the article
will be posted because they want to go
check out the site and see what tone and
style it is and then they will change
their writing so it matches so the
really good people will ask about that
kind of thing and if you haven't worked
with someone for a little while maybe
you got him to write a couple articles
for you then you can basically say
actually they're being posted here you
should go check out the content there
because I want you to you know write in
that style right into you know another
going back to what you mentioned about
whether they write reviews or
informational post the reviews can be a
little bit more difficult so you could
use sort of like the perfect Amazon
review framework that's on the start
here page on their site project
to give them an idea of what should be
where in the structure you know that
should give them a really good idea and
then the other thing is you can you know
give them a sample exactly you know
something on your side and say I wanted
to be structured sort of like this if
it's a review post you probably need to
tell them like here are the four
different items that you
to write specs on okay you could find my
information yeah on the Amazon page
there's bullet points you can use the
bullet points to formulate what you're
writing but put it in your own narrative
and in your own words so I think that
covers most of it the key is to like
hire put the job posting up hire like
four people
sure and plan on keeping like one or two
yes so you can still use the content
from the other two the most likely
you're going to enjoy working with some
of the people or the others and you know
it's just a trial job it's not any sort
of major and finally the last thing is
the person that you're emailing with who
wants three cents a word unless and
basically I think it's too much unless
she knows exactly that specific product
sure and some of those products and
stuff right otherwise that's pretty
expensive yeah this is borderline but my
take is I bet she's more experienced or
has been giving a higher salary
somewhere else so she's like well I'm
not gonna do it unless I make a shirt
work sure
so do you happen to know if she has a
lot of experience
I think she's fairly new I found her
through a different site that I'm a part
of as well the same ones that preach you
know if your ghostwriting ask for this
much
you started I see already you command a
lot more money and so they kind of lay
that groundwork that if you were
quote-unquote writing in a certain style
you could command more money alright and
so I came back with the initially with
15 and I said it's too much and then she
came back right away and said well I'm a
little flexible I can work with other
amounts god sure that's kind of how we
ended up getting those first couple
articles done so she's new but not brand
brand-new I guess in what can you say
what the site was yeah it's called a
location rival location uh okay so into
and I don't know a ton about the
membership or whatever yeah if I were to
summarize you correct me if I'm wrong
it's like it helps people be freelancers
so they have a location independent
right Brook and my guess is the people
that are taking the training or being
trained to ask for more money so you
went to a place where they're being
trained ask for more right they start
you off on this blog writing realm and
then the that's very short and sweet and
they very quickly trying transitioning
out of that and go with more SEO
approach and get more money seeking
financial lifestyle the location gotcha
so my my like cynical nature tells me
that like they want people in that
community to make more money so the
people that are there that are
freelancers are asking for more money
and going like higher up the food chain
I mean this stuff that I'm having done
for cheaper sure is like more basic
stuff maybe it's a great rider and all
that but essentially like they're
training the people yeah location rather
looks like ask for more money which
they're doing anyway to a place where
that's right
so like now that I'm looking at my god
that makes more sense and then up work
they may come in like you know I heard
about this freelancing thing your up
work came up on a search and they
register yeah yeah cool well when are
you going to try it hire some people
I'll probably send something out today
or write something up today and give it
on the pork just because we're gonna be
out of town for the evening
so I'll be you just kind of let it sit
and marinate fling some offers and then
I'll be able to review it Thursday
morning okay
cool it sounds good well as we check
back in and we'll do another update to
find out if whatever I told you works or
if not all right thanks and let us know
in the comments if you liked the video
for max or if we should change our
uniform maybe we wear different shirts
yeah for color I can't grow the hair so
yeah I was going to say maybe we'll have
different wave so you could tell you
know yeah let us know in the comments if
you like this and maybe we'll do some
more thanks
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