SEO Experiments and On Page SEO with Kyle Roof - DS065 #DougShow #Best Education Page #Online Earning

don't worry that's gonna make sense

later what's going on

welcome to the Doug show in this episode

I talked to Kyle roof and Kyle is an

amazing SEO

he's very accomplished and he also runs

these complicated experiments and the

cool thing is it's really hard in my

opinion to run tests and a lot of times

people will ask me a question about SEO

and what certain things may happen if

they take certain actions and usually I

have a general idea about the things

that you can do that are good and some

things that are bad and things that you

shouldn't do but I don't really have

like a solid answer for many things the

cool thing with what Kyle's doing is

he's running experiments in a scientific

way that's one of the biggest things

that I learned how he does these tests

and experiments and actually gets data

and he can be very confident in the

results so that is probably the number

one thing I want you to get out of this

interview so keep keep your ears open

for that further I do want to mention

page optimizer pro I'm an affiliate for

that product but it is a very effective

tool Kyle is one of the he's the

inventor of page optimizer pro and I

quickly looked up the webpage so I can

hit all the beats for the what this tool

actually does so Kyle invented a method

for ranking sites called the scientific

on page method and basically what you're

able to do is get a lot of information

from the competitors content so that you

know the keyword density to use for

certain keywords related keywords and

that sort of thing and if you have a

look over at page optimizer pro you'll

see that the testimonials are fantastic

I've had experience using similar tools

and similar

exercises and I know for a fact that

improving your existing content by

optimizing the on-page it works it works

pretty much 100% of the time now I may

not work for every single post that you

optimize but generally you're gonna get

a very good result from using it so you

can check out page optimizer pro and see

if you like it I like it very much by

the way

so without further adieu we'll go ahead

and get over to the interview hey what's

going on it's Doug Huntington here and

I'm sitting with Kyle roof how are you

today I'm great thanks Doug

it's a pleasure to have you on we were

just chatting beforehand and of course

we have some SEO you know obsessiveness

that's common but apparently we also

enjoy alcohol so what is sure drink of

choice Kyle my poison along with Janis

Joplin is a Southern Comfort and I'll

usually drinks SoCo and diet here's a

go-to but it's a hard thing because a

lot of places don't have it so I have to

ask you have SoCo and then they do those

hem and haw and they don't have it then

I go for a captain morgans or a Sailor

Jerry's that kind of a thing okay okay

yeah I enjoy I'm mostly a beer person

but I you know like many other people

that enjoy alcohol it's whatever is in

front of me and like maybe the weather

you know if it's a sunny day by the pool

like I may not want to have whiskey like

maybe that's a even Coors Light you know

I'm in the Boulder Colorado area so you

know there's a lot of beer around here

and course lights just you know her

Coors is just down the street and golden

so that's the perfect recovery drink you

know it's like people want to go for

like Bloody Mary is give me a Coors

Light like 11:00 a.m. yeah I mean a

couple of those like it you're right

yeah I mean when you got a hydrate like

that is what you need to do it so it's

basically water its water with a little

okay but um are you like one of those

guys that gets into like IPAs or this

level of bitterness or that is that you

are your focus yeah I got really

into that so I did some home brewing and

like really dove in headfirst I wish it

literally that's actually seems fun now

that I'm saying it out loud but yeah I

got into home brewing and all sorts of

beers really love Belgian beers and

became a beer judge and blah blah blah

so I took that to the extreme as well so

the only fancy beer I think I get into

is uh this is my humble brag where I get

to travel to Europe a lot but in Germany

in Bavaria they've got a hell's atll yes

and I think that is the pinnacle of beer

dumb isn't a native Goodell's yes I

enjoy those too you know I like all

sorts of beer so even like I actually

have some in the refrigerator so a

couple helis from local around here so I

know people are here for SEO so I will

transition quickly to also aside from

you know southern comfort and some other

you know darker liquors can you give

your or can you give an introduction so

people can get to know you a little bit

here sure my name is Kyle roof the name

of the agency that co-founded is high

voltage SEO now we do local to national

international to everything else in

between I I'm at the office in Phoenix

Arizona we also have an office in Berlin

we have an office in Melbourne we have

about 16 clients 3-16-16 employs about

70 clients I am the lead tester for si

which is a testing group where I oversee

and publish single mostly single

variable tests on Google's algorithm and

then I'm also the math and co-creator of

page optimizer pro which is an on-page

value what you talk cool and I just

started using page optimizer pro

recently pretty slick and you know we'll

talk about that probably a little bit

more I may have some questions for you

on it but how did you get into SEO as I

was doing a research I saw that you have

a diverse background and even a law

degree so can you tell me how you found

your way into this area it was a

planning the same path that everybody

takes that a to be right I started as a

trial attorney and I did divorce custody

and support and criminal defense and I

actually hated it so I

I decided to take a year off and I moved

to South Korea which i think is what

most people do when they want to take a

year off and that one year off turned

into five and while there I opened a

business in Korea and we needed a

website and I had done some website

building in college just kind of for fun

and kind of got back into it and it took

a while because the site that we built

for the company was kind of complex and

took me a while to kind of assemble a

team and I realized oh hey I could

actually just our general contracting

websites because I've got the solid team

I brought my brother involved into the

company and then we realized you know we

got all these guys in India I hope we

just moved to India and open a company

there looking like watch them and we'll

get more work done and the prices will

be better costs be lower because we're

not paying freelancers so we did that

and then the real short version is we

got raided by the police my brother got

thrown in jail they shut down our car

company and in India and so my brother

who does web design and development said

okay I can take these four clients and

service them because we lost our

employees right they didn't want and

they don't want to they didn't need to

be involved in that scene with the

police right so we're just hemorrhaging

clients he said I can take these four

and we had just started doing SEO and I

had invested my last penny into this

company and I realized that I needed to

learn SEO right then and there to

service those SEO clients so I could pay

the rent next month and and that's

literally what I did like right then and

there I was like I need to figure out

this SEO thing and and it was like a

make or break situation crazy so what um

like what year was that when you went to

South Korea I went to South Korea in

2008 and then started doing the this

kind of work on the side if you will

2010 or so and then the India debacle

was 2012 or 2013 okay

Wow so that's really not that long ago

in terms of SEO or in terms of a career

yeah it's not that not that long ago at

all but when you have to learn SEO

immediately it really accelerates your

your path then that's what got me into

testing

I realized you know when like hey is

this a ranking factor and you get three

answers that say yes and three and say

no and three very learned and answers

that say maybe and I was like well I

think I need to figure this out on my

own and and that's what I did through

kind of refining the testing process of

setting up test environments to see if

something is or is not a ranking factor

or something or is not true the other

thing I branagh do well as well as you

know you get a recipe of 50 things and

you're like do I really have to do all

50 you know what really and here's is

making things happen and so it was

really just an economy of time trying to

cut through when you do or don't have to

do and then that's what this was really

an accelerated me into being I guess an

SEO expert and that and that's really

just being able to kind of cut through

that annoys through through testing

models and stuff like that okay into

your knowledge like was there anyone

else or is there or do you have

competitors like doing tests like this

in any sort of public fashion at all

obviously it's very expensive and

difficult to do there are a few other

people that are doing it when I started

though I didn't know that and the

testing that I put together was an

independent thought since then I've had

people who want to yell at me and say

like I didn't invent science and I

understand that you know I didn't invent

SEO testing like I don't want to make

that claim but the the method that I put

together I independently put together I

didn't know anybody else's just I hadn't

seen anybody else's test I've seen seen

some and and there are several guys

they're doing a great job with it but

there they are few and far between

because it's not easy to do and it's not

easy to conceptualize that's kind of the

bigger problem is that when you're

looking at Google's algorithm and it's

so vast how do you how do you actually

run a single variable test or how can

you actually put your finger on this is

what that thing is and so that's kind of

a long a lot part of the process of kind

of being able to think about things the

right way putting together in the right

framework cool and it's funny because I

often complain about this you know

people will ask you know how long does

it take for I will ask you a lot of

these questions in a rapid-fire section

here in a second but like people will

ask about certain pieces like will this

link help or how long does it take for

this link to do anything that sort of

thing and

a lot of times I'm like you know what

it's so hard for us just in a real world

scenario because there's like so many

variables involved and many of them are

external anyway and you can't even

control them so can you talk about the

approach that you take and I imagine

with your you know logical mind in your

law degree like you were able to come at

it at a different angle than you know

the general sort of SEO person that has

found their way into it so can you just

talk about your approach sure the most

simple way to look at it would be you

you optimize for a were that doesn't

exist then you've created an environment

that only you control you know nobody

else is in there so you're immediately

eliminating all those extra variables

and then in the most simple setup you'll

create five pages on the same domain

that are exactly the same and you'll

index them all and then on the

number-three page you'll change one

thing now we're down to one single

variable people ask like what about

duplicate content well if there is a

duplicate content penalty it's now

applied to all five the same anything

that was maybe there's a penalty on that

domain it's now been applied to all five

pages the same the only obviously you

need a unique URL so what I'll do is

I'll put the keyword as close to the

dot-com as I can and then random letter

strings so - letter letter letter -

letter literally and that gives you a

unique URL but otherwise the the pages

are gonna be identical and then from

there if you change one thing you've got

it down to one variable so if you want

to say his the h1 or ranking factor so

you would put in one h1 on say number

three you containing the target keyword

and you'll see it go up and you know

that's a positive factor you'll then

want to run that multiple times you want

to get you want to replicate these tests

and if you can do something four times -

five times in a row you're inside of or

just outside of statistical significance

but one big thing to think about is

they're running it in the inverse so

that the first time we put it on the

number three and we saw it go up when

when you run in the inverse you'll put

it on the one two four and five and then

the three should drop because you've run

the test the other way and that's how we

get to real confidence in what we're

doing because

you know he was like Google could be

tricking you or something that they

can't tricky in the universe you know

they can't run it he can't run something

and get get a a repeatable result in the

positive and then also get it in the

negative and then once you've got that

then you feel pretty strongly about that

yes this is or is not a ring exactly

Wow it's like dangerously simple right

like yeah easy to implement I imagine

but like that's so clear now why do you

have five pages instead of just two

because there is the chance that if you

launch two it could just go one way or

the other

you know with by having a larger set and

a lot of tests will run now or even

larger than the five you want be able to

see some movement you know whether

that's gonna be positive or negative

movement and then you don't always the

thing to is you don't always get

something that's gonna shoot all the way

to the top or all the way to the bottom

you know there is a bit of I think score

normalization is actually a good

description of what happens so these

things are ranked and then there's a

normalized score and so you might not

get above that normalized score with

whatever factor you're looking at so you

know that you want to see you want to

gauge how much movement you can actually

get okay interesting and then for like

your standard testing procedure you

mentioned getting to be able to repeat

it so you're applying the scientific

method and it all sounds great right so

how often do you try and repeat it is it

that four to five times just so that

you're like alright this seems pretty

legit yeah because if you had a coin

flip you know a coin flip is 50/50 but a

repeatable coin flip how many times can

you get heads in a row if you did four

times in a row it's about six percent

are your chances of getting four heads

in a row you know and statistical

significance is at five percent so when

you're at that repeatable thing of four

or five times you're basically inside of

a statistical probability where we feel

good about yeah we're seeing this

because it's unlikely you're gonna get

the same result that many times in a row

but then when you're under than the

inverse you have the same result then we

feel very very confident in the and what

we're looking at okay very cool and I

know you probably have some interesting

results where maybe something

counterintuitive happened is there at

any particular

that comes to mind where you're like oh

we were shocked when we did this test

and blah blah blah

well one that's a you know what's really

interesting about it is is the best

results you get are the ones they aren't

expecting and the other thing too is I

don't have a narrative with my tests I

don't I am agnostic to the result you

know it's the result for the result I

think where maybe some people get in

trouble is getting married to the result

because then it fits maybe a course that

they're selling or yeah and then you get

that that confirmation bias towards

those sorts of things but I think if you

can take your pride out of the situation

and just look at what the result is then

you can see a bad result for the good

result that it actually is because it

led you to another discovery it was kind

of funny with just running a test in

with some people in our group somebody

that mentor and it was just putting just

a male on the page you know is this a

positive or native factor and what's

interesting is that it keeps demoting

the page so now i know that can't be a

negative factor right so there's

something else going on there and so now

we're in the process of figure out what

could that other thing be what is

actually happening on this page you know

is it we're adding some extra code is it

that it's not a real email address is it

so like now well now we're playing with

those things so this is a fluid

situation that's going on at this moment

cuz we're like that's a really weird

result is it just an anomaly which it

very well could be so now we have to

rerun it see if we get the same anomaly

and then start to hypothesize about

where things may or may not have gone

wrong or if you will right and then we

can then then we make some real

discoveries about what's going on at the

algorithm interesting yeah you probably

run across this too Kyle where someone

does one thing once and then they assume

that that is the way it is a hundred

percent of the time and they go around

maybe in facebook groups for example and

just like keep spreading around these

sort of rumors so yeah it's very just to

put a pin in it like everyone just an

end of one isn't very useful you have to

be able to repeat it other people should

be able to repeat it and I love the

rigorous fashion that you guys are

testing and like I guess learn

right I mean it's the only way and like

you said you're you're agnostic to the

results like it's just this is what

happened when we did X and the results

speak for themselves you don't need to

get angry at me for the result you know

just get angry at the result but then we

can discuss it too and the other thing

is being able to show the testing method

this is how this was tested so maybe

there's a flaw in the method and there

are a lot of sharp people that can then

review this and say hey did you think

consider this or what you think of that

and often I'll be like hey I did not

think of that that's a great idea

and then let's let's run it back through

actually what I often say to people's

like can you run this and then let's

we'll get your results and they that's

as far as they go yeah because it's not

it's it's difficult to set up as

time-consuming it's frustrating at times

and a lot of people just don't want to

do it so how are you at a test run like

what's the typical time frame well so

like you're looking at like an on page

sort of thing

what's funny is you can get results

within minutes you know when you reindex

the pages are used to resubmit them to

save a search console you can often see

if it's good for stronger signals stuff

within 10 15 20 minutes which is

remarkable usually though if we're

looking at we're like hey we're not

getting any move in here you get you

want to look at it this is real life

anyway about maybe two cache dates which

is usually maybe five to seven days when

cache is working properly so maybe

fourteen days and we don't get movement

then we might move on million and on

page sense but like you're talking about

with off page with links the real

frustrating thing is even in these small

environments it can take weeks upon

weeks two three weeks

six eight weeks I've seen those in test

environments where it just takes that

long for a link to pass any kind of

juice even within such a small

controlled area so link links take

forever gotcha and that's been my

observation over time as well where it

used to be you know even 2013 when it

sounds like you were getting into like

SEO deep is that is that right 2013 okay

yeah it would be like a full-time gig

yeah right and it was like two or three

days and you can see like what links

help you could adjust anchor text and it

was like pretty powerful to have that

knowledge now it's my hunch and you can

confirm or you know disagree like Google

throttled it back so we don't know what

we're

doing with all these variables we don't

know what helped rankings or hurt

rankings so we can't exploit things as

well as marketer so is that kind of your

you should also think that things just

got bigger you know there's more to

crawl

since then exponentially more and it

just might take more time you use

another possibility yeah yeah so like

there are times where I think when

there's like the the folia stuff that

Google brings into play and but I think

a lot of it is is serendipity for them

just like oh we didn't realize that that

would happen because it would take so

long but that's great you know it's a

built-in thing because it just it takes

that long to process those URLs yeah

where they hit in the queue and then

that turns into this much time now and

now it looks like they turn to gauge and

really it was just things got bigger you

know so like I never I never thought of

that but yeah that would be a great way

a great side benefit there so you

mentioned like two to three weeks and

some up to six to eight weeks for a link

to show its impact even in these very

controlled environments for bogus words

that don't even exist and stuff like

that so is that kind of like the max

range that you've seen or could it

extend out like six months or something

well it could the problem you're run

into is that these pages are susceptible

to updates and that when an update

happens because they are identical you

can actually see them shift and so you

are susceptible to those changes in a

broad core update which is actually a

way to see if a core update has actually

happened as you can see your unused test

pages move which is actually kind of fun

so like you run into those obstacles

where if you let it sit that long it is

possible that it just what you saw isn't

actually the link doing anything or

whatever you were playing with do

anything it was just an update that

happened which then gets into the real

frustrating thing when you're doing

links you want to replicate them you

know and it's something that takes four

weeks that's a long time to get

something replicated again especially

like on test two like you really like oh

my god I mean let's say then there went

eight weeks wire

now my test do you you guys have going

like concurrently uh well I try to I

published 10 a month right now that's

gonna change shortly but to do that you

have figure Li two to three per one that

it it actually makes it publish worthy

it's kind of whereas so let's say and

then the stuff kind of publishes within

a group as well so there's they're

people that help me they're running

their own Testament which is actually

great because you read you run out of

ideas you know they're the things that I

care about and those are things that I

test and then I just don't have the

ideas because there are things I don't

care about they're like oh I never

thought of that so there's a group that

that we work on these tests together and

so I I would say minimum twenty to

thirty tests are running at any time

okay Wow Wow well that's crazy just

knowing the effort that it takes me men

time and all that stuff so very

interesting now like all good internet

marketers I imagine maybe you bumped

into some penalties at some point

Giovani good Google penalty stories well

sure the the most famous one is when the

site that I built and lorem ipsum and

was ranking and then it got published in

a search engine journal and it was D

index six hours later pure spam but what

was the the next part of that though is

that that night when I woke up the next

morning between like 115 and 127 a.m. I

think was like twenty two of my test

sites redeemed X and these sites weren't

linking to that to that competition site

they were all on their own and it was

just purely punitive so what I did was

actually the reconsideration requests on

the sides and they got shot down so at

first one I wrote back and I was like

hey this site is not optimized for any

keywords that anybody else is optimizing

for or bidding on in Adwords it cannot

be spam because it's not filling up any

space that if somebody else wants and

they deny that so then I took the whole

site down and just left the twenty

twelve template up and reconsidered and

they denied that and

I put up one page it was just a

paragraph that said this is my personal

site this is clearly unique contents as

I'm writing this one paragraph right now

just stream-of-consciousness you know

this can't be anywhere else on the

internet and I did that and they denied

it as well so then I realized that was

just punitive at that point they were

they were specifically taking down my

sites for I guess punishment for showing

how the algorithm works in true the

other side so like were they in the same

because like I had a penalty and it was

a similar thing where one one site I was

doing something wrong and then

everything else in my you know I had

them all in the same search console area

which I know that's an easy way to link

them up so in that case were they in the

same like analytics zone or something

like that so they there were some

crosses here and there but I mean they

were all on different IPS they all had

one of five different hosts that I used

some had domain privacy some didn't some

had GA some didn't some were in the same

search console but most weren't because

most have their own Gmail so they were

all pretty spread out and they really

with HAMP looks at a couple linked to

each other just for some test purposes

but otherwise they were separated so I

don't really know I think it was

probably the registrar level because

they all were registered in the same

spot and I know that Google clearly has

access to that information sure and I

think they could just look at all my

domains and so this let's knock out

these twenty that's my best guess

oh man that's a there's a bummer but

yeah that's a cool story just in general

Google the the spam team they read

search engine journal I guess so yeah

they also I always have a good time

thinking that there's some schlub in

Mountain View and his job for two days

was me he's just typing away trying to

figure out my stuff that's pretty funny

and do you just cure I'm imagining that

like do you have any and if you if you

can't answer this okay do you know

anyone like in Google or anything like

that you know no I don't know anyone so

okay

yeah I don't I think they know me they

know of you so as far as like like other

gray hat activities and stuff like that

are there certain things that are

actually I don't know do you do you any

gray house stuff or can you mention that

or like what's your approach like

whatever works and what's effective er

well I don't really know what what is

black or white or gray did I guess that

kind of depends on what you think it is

sure or like or like the person that

themself not you but the editorial you

you know it's more of a personal choice

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