I had a really bad experience when I was
12 years old at a church camp sexually
assaulted by two men over the course of
a couple of days and you know that was
you know it ruined me oh you know just
you know like so much shame and so much
guilt and didn't share with anybody for
actually 31 years until actually just a
year and a half ago was when I kind of
you know finally brought it out to my
wife and a good friend of mine but you
know so I was like I got into just
grabbing on to anything that I could use
that would help me just navigate life
and you know not I mean I have multiple
different you know suicide attempts kind
of growing up and so but I found this
idea of an alter ego that helped me for
periods of time just suspend my own you
know disbelief but what I could do get
me out of my own narrative and my own
story and step into you know a different
self so that I could still go out and do
the things that I wanted to do right
like I mean I think there's a lot of
people that can relate I know they can
because I've shared the story before
around you know people have there's a
lot of people who had some tough
experiences in life and for some people
it's a puppet string and the unconscious
that holds you back in some ways
it's that force of resistance and it's
hard to cut that string because you're
holding on to that narrative but when
you step into using a creative
imagination the idea of well you know
what would Oprah do or Serena Williams
do or what would Superman do and you
just for that moment and then even
longer you kind of bring yourself out of
that narrative and now you're acting and
living through a different narrative yes
so essentially what you're saying is
taking on this heroic alter-ego of your
best self so whatever if you've got to
go up and give a speech or you have to
perform in a big event or whatever it is
to bring out that identity that's within
you that would allow you to perform at
your best in that moment yeah sometimes
we have this we have a tough time seeing
ourselves do something but we can see
other people do it you're like I can see
why he can do it but I can't right
there's actually a powerful frame that
you found that you can now use to now
hey everyone this is Stefan James from
project life mastery and I'm here right
now at Todd Herrmann who is the author
of the best-selling book called the
alter ego effect the power of secret
identities to transform your life and
Todd has been working with and mentoring
for the last 20 years some of the most
successful top performers in the world
Olympic athletes CEOs entrepreneurs
public figures and he's created this
book to dive in and that what's more
gonna dive in today is how you can take
your performance to the next level so
Todd man thanks for taking the time
buddy it's long overdue yeah do you mind
sharing with people your story how did
this all come about and how did you get
to working with some of the world's top
performers yeah so I mean I grew up in
on a farm and ranch in Western Canada
both Canadian guys I mean I live in New
York City now but you know growing up at
that farm I was all about sports and
activity trying to keep up with my older
brothers and you know over the course
time I was pretty good at a couple of
different sports and that managed to get
myself into a you know college football
scholarship play college football and
but my kind of I mean I'm not a
physically gifted person I'm not six
foot four and 250 pounds or something
like that
so my kind of big superpower or that I
kind of maybe developed was my mental
game approach that I had and I was
really good with that played bigger than
I probably was I know that I did I
played bigger than I was and you know
after I got done playing I ended up
getting into you know coaching young
athletes and I'd shared more to them
about how the mental game worked and you
know or they just giving them strategies
like better routines and better
preparation like some goal-setting and
just the things that I was using and
they started getting really great
results and that just ended up turning
into a business for myself but a lot of
that actually came from my where where I
actually needed to develop mental game
stuff and some mental toughness was I
had a really bad experience when I was
12 years old at a church camp sexually
assaulted by two men over the course of
a couple of days and you know that was
you know it ruined me oh you know just
you know it's so much shame and so much
guilt and didn't share with anybody for
actually
31 years until actually just a year and
a half ago was when I kind of you know
finally brought it out to my wife and a
good friend of mine but you know so I
was like I got into just grabbing on to
anything that I could use that would
help me just navigate life and you know
not I mean I multiple different you know
suicide attempts kind of growing up and
so but I found this idea of an alter ego
that helped me for periods of time just
suspend my own you know disbelief but
what I could do get me out of my own
narrative and my own story and step into
you know a different self so that I
could still go out and do the things
that I wanted to do right like I mean I
think there's a lot of people that can
relate I know they can cuz I've shared
the story before around you know people
have there's a lot of people have had
some tough experiences in life and for
some people it's a puppet string in the
unconscious that holds you back in some
way it's that roots where that's that
force of resistance and it's hard to cut
that string because you're holding on to
that narrative but when you step into
using your creative imagination the idea
of well you know what would Oprah do or
Serena Williams do or what would
Superman do and you just for that moment
and then even longer you kind of bring
yourself out of that narrative and now
you're acting and living through a
different narrative which doesn't have
that same resistance and it actually
helps you still untap who you actually
are right because there are you know
there's layers of you know the the stuff
that we carry around with us that stops
us and we know it doesn't serve us or we
can't figure out why am i not doing this
when you ask ourselves that question
then we end up just getting into a viral
loop in our head slowing us down and you
know it's a it's a tough question
sometimes why is sometimes a tough
question for people to handle because
we're inside the bottle of our own life
and it's really hard to read the label
whereas you know playing with these
other identities and you sort of
shape-shift and then you can actually
get the things that you want to or you
can actually act on the things that you
want to do and that isn't about being
inauthentic because anytime you know
inauthenticity is when you're doing
things in order to deceive or trick
other people
and this is all about you really
untapping the things that are already
there that are being affected by just
the many fears and judgments and words
and criticisms that people naturally
have and so I mean I've built out alter
egos and secret enemies for pro athletes
Olympic athletes all around the world
you know there isn't a continent that I
haven't touched basically in executives
and leaders and just not just in the
context of sport and business though I
mean I tell stories in there about how
people have been able to step into like
way better parents by tapping into this
idea and we can kind of talk about it
yes so essentially what you're saying is
taking on this heroic alter-ego of your
best self so whatever if you've got to
go up and give a speech or you have to
perform in a big event or whatever it is
to bring out that identity that's within
you that would allow you to perform at
your best in that moment yeah absolutely
and I mean and it's it could be like you
know closing a sale doing a deal
starting the business sometimes we have
this we have a tough time seeing
ourselves do something but we can see
other people do it you're like I can see
why he can do it but I can't right
there's actually a powerful frame that
you found that you can now use to now
perform at a higher level so you know
the reason that I've been so successful
at working with people and helping them
like transform performance is because I
don't invent new things I'm simply just
trying to look and find existing
phenomenon that lived inside of the
psychology of how human beings are built
and just leverage it so to that point
it's the grass is greener that's that's
the classic grass is greener on the
other side effect right like so oh I can
see why Stefan can do that and then you
build up this narrative it's because
he's got this and this and this and this
and this and then and then you basically
the flip of that is well because I can't
do it because of this this this and this
okay fine
you've just put yourself into a box yeah
and I'm not and what I'm not here to do
is try to change what's inside that box
that's trying to change someone's mind
set that way is a long and slow process
instead I go okay we're gonna leave you
there
let's leave you there but if you could
act to and through this over here if you
no no I get I get you want to argue for
your own limitations yeah that's fine
that's how to define them that's how
they define them say I am this way
that's my personality I'm a challenger
or I'm this there's another ire yeah
whatever yeah no I get it I get that
that's what you are
but then how's that serving you right so
it's the it's the best question that dr.
Phil contributed to society how's that
working for you right how's it working
for you right and then you can justify
for me and all those things okay
wonderful you know are you willing to
accept a new idea of what you think you
can and cannot do just what are you
because if you're willing then I can
work through if you're not then you know
stay trapped there because that that
ability that we have to like see how
other people can do it but we can't I'm
like great let's now create that other
self for you which is still you because
it's impossible for you to act and
create a result if it wasn't already
inside of you right and then what
happens is you get to this point where I
share in the book the quote from Cary
Grant where he says you know the famous
helot Hollywood golden era actor
debonair charismatic or he says I
pretended to be somebody I wanted to be
and I became that person or he became me
but we met at some point and the only
thing I would change in that is I
activated the person I want it to be
it's because what I'm trying to you know
the message I'm trying to give people is
no you have the power is inside of you
we are only superpowers human beings is
the creative imagination it's the thing
that truly separates us from other
beings on the planet now people go over
we got better critical critical thinking
skills we might have better but that's
not the thing that's unique to us no
other animal has a creative imagination
like we do where we can actually be
anything we can step into and create new
selves all of the time it's so powerful
and so I I treat people as you know some
people go okay that's a they're broken
and I'm going to fix them terrible yeah
terrible paradigm to treat
people through I'm like no your re-fixed
your thick like your hole already I'm
just gonna peel away all of the residue
and layers of stuff and help you
subtract delete remove so that then all
of a sudden you get to the point where
you're like wow I became the person I
want it to be so how can people activate
that heroic alter-ego is it acting as if
identifying this is the person that I
need to be and then start to shift your
physiology take on those beliefs yes are
doing the things that that person would
do so that's that's some of it but the
first place is it's always context
you're always building an identity for a
field of play and this is the healthiest
thing that you can do actually some
people are like this is this is actually
going to confront some people's beliefs
about what it means to be a whole self
or human being or authenticity and I'm
gonna break a lot of them for you right
now
because for the longest time the
psychology world had basically brought
up the idea that the people who had the
best mental health where people who had
a single identity a single self that
they identified with I in this way
Elliot we have a single body like I've
got a body but it carries many selves so
I always just fundamentally knew as a
practitioner like again I'm not someone
who's like created courses and like this
is 22 years now in I have 16,000 hours
working people one-on-one that's that's
this Tostitos nose to nose face to face
that's a completely different level of
performance that happens because when
I'm giving you strategy Stefan to go and
win you're gonna come back tomorrow or
the next day and let me know what
happened and if over the course of a
month if everything I'm giving you isn't
working
I'm not we're not gonna be working
together very long because I'm not
helping you perform I mean I get paid on
results and and so but whereas in a
group environment things can hide in
there because a groupthink takes over
which is a which is a classic paradigm
that we use human beings live under we
start raising us yeah work for me too
because we don't want to look weird in
the tribe or something like that so we
have multiple selves that we take out
there as a petitioner I knew I'm like
well of course my athlete is different
out there than they are
over here it makes sense that's why when
you hear people go oh man I met
so-and-so there's there lot different in
real life than you yeah or they're a lot
different in person yeah yeah of course
they are like that's what I want to
break I want to like create a completely
new set of rules that people that
society operates through this way
because it's the reality of stuff and so
multiple self theory is now the fastest
growing probably area of study now in
psychology where it is now understood
that the people who have and identify
with multiple identities in themselves
multiple cells based on context me as a
business person with me as a salesperson
inside my business me as a parent as a
you know friend and then you're creating
and intentionally creating that that
self that's going to help you win out
there that's custom-built to win are the
people who have the highest level of
mental health the people who I have they
think they have one single self one
single identity have the highest rate of
mental health issues to your point of
like well that's just who I am I'm shy
or you know I'm a challenger like that's
me I mean I'm working people like you
high performers high achievers people
that want and are ambitious about life
every day all day long eight to ten
hours of the day and that's natural for
me to bring my challenge or personality
out where I'm trying to break paradigms
and it would pull people across finish
lines and push them forward and you know
help give them new tools and just really
problem-solve that stuff the last thing
that my children want when I get home is
a challenge or personality right so how
is that working for you how's that
working for you when you're bringing
that self home from work to home creates
a ton of problems your wife isn't gonna
like it or your husband is gonna like it
your my kids aren't gonna like that they
want fun playful their little kids they
want fun playful gentle dad and here's
the thing I know that they live inside
of me I know that those qualities are
there I do not subscribe to the whole
personality like imprinting of my DNA
no because the moment I do that I am
completely defying what it is to be a
human being yeah right yeah so funny you
know I I work with Roger love is number
one both coach in the world worships me
and I didn't interview with them and I
said
what have you noticed you worked with
Eminem John Mayer Selena Gomez what have
you noticed from these incredible
performers and he said 90% of them are
introverts and that they take on this
identity this persona yeah to perform in
that moment and it says exactly what
you're describing here and I can relate
to that myself as me as the youtuber the
speaker the coach but I have many
different facets of myself yeah and I
just define or limit myself just as that
one person yeah and so what do people
say to use like you know yeah but don't
you want to bring out that real you on
your YouTube channel well what's what's
real right right like what does that
mean even like the people it's actually
gotten to be very dangerous a lot of the
kind of ideas they've been passed around
in especially today more so than any
other era because social media has
become so dangerous it's so weaponized
with you know commentary and hatred and
a judgment and criticism people jumping
the gun way before and making decisions
before they have all the information
about a situation or something like that
everyone's got an opinion and so what
it's doing and I'm and I'm seeing it
even more so in the gen Z and that Gen Y
that millennial era where people are
actually gripped with so much tribal
fear right now right like they're afraid
to say things they're afraid to get it
may be wrong originally because
someone's gonna jump all over them it's
terrible right and so what what what is
what do you mean by authentic because
because here is what authenticity and
being inauthentic is when you can do
something and you don't that is
inauthentic you know and how I know that
to be true just getting to the facts of
the matter is when you lay your head on
the pillow at night and you recount your
day and unpack it and you say why didn't
I say that that person why didn't I
speak up when that person was like
dissing on my friend or something like
that or why didn't I you know close the
deal when I had the opportunity and I
know that they were kind of like making
all the buying signals but you know I
was scared about rejection or you know
why didn't I call my mom today and tell
her that
I love her instead of just thinking
about it right different possibilities
exist when you do that that is being
inauthentic that is operating from a
trapped self and I'm not saying that
stuff to beat people up but that is a
fantastic context and paradigm to live
life through like I don't want to tell
the less I can do that with my head on a
pillow at night the better I'm going to
sleep and and the and the more that you
say man I'm so happy that I actually
walked up to that guy at that conference
and introduced myself and or I'm like
I'm excited that I actually finally
moved past the resistance in the
rejection and the worry of that stuff
when I asked for the sale didn't happen
but at least I did it right that's
growth that's you spiraling out of that
trap self and into what I call the
heroic self in the book and then you're
developing more and more of yourself
like um anyway it's just there's there's
a lot of things in the society right now
that are they're extremely troublesome
enter and are causing good people like
the ones that listen to you you know a
lot of mental strife and emotional
strife yeah yeah yeah and I want to make
sure you guys check out this book I'm
gonna link to it below for you guys 20
years are working with top performers
what are some key beliefs and mindsets
that you've observed from some of the
top performers out there yeah okay I'll
give one that will be maybe challenging
for some people to think but um ah so an
an alter ego some people could describe
it as a super-ego so the ego is the
thing that you bring out that you know
you know is prideful right and you know
acts out of maybe pleasing other people
all those kind of qualities that end up
not getting us what we want and then
there's the super ego or the alter ego
that sits on top of that to help us
really like show up like in a full bloom
and form out there and there is a one of
the top soccer players arguably to ever
live that's been a client and he just
has a fundamental frame of mine that
he's offended by the other people
showing up onto the field with him that
they shouldn't be sharing the blades of
grass with him you know again it's
important he's not in the press
conference saying that right
but again that's what he believes again
I'm
working someone one-on-one that's when
you can actually unpack how really
successful people are thinking okay not
the stuff that makes you know that's you
know bandied about that is palatable to
the people who sit in the average middle
that want to argue for their limitations
and then you know people throw out some
self-help stuff that makes them makes
that crowd feel a little bit better
about themselves but not it's like no
I'm here to give you the real and honest
truth you can take it or leave it all
you for all you want but it's the
reality of how they think and there's
but there's very little information
that's been spread around as to how the
elite actually work and think now again
this isn't just in business in sport I'm
talking about the elite as parents right
like how do they I mean and that's what
I've seen the elite parents there is
this element of gentleness also a
challenge Challenger thing there's an
element of responsibility that they give
to their kids frequently and so for him
he's just fundamental believes that it's
it's offensive to him that they're
showing up on that pitch with them they
don't deserve to be out there and
because of that I am going to destroy
you out here and so when you think of
the context of performance does that
gonna help him perform higher a hundred
percent it well sure a hundred percent
and and so that's that's one thing is
that they have a really that they they
had this fantastic ability to live in
context that on that pitch that works
for him now when I started working on
that attitude had actually spread
outside of that box of the field and it
was in his personal life as well it
doesn't work so well right out there on
the field in context different contexts
yeah on the field that works good for
you because it's competition it's like
aggression but you know in a
relationship yeah but you know best of
luck with that right and so I really
helped him you know you know really
evolve that identity you know into being
more than that right and entrepreneurs
are you know fall prey to this as well
they only describe themselves as I'm an
entrepreneur so is that all of your
identity because for me I'm an
entrepreneur I'm a dad
I'm a lover a husband you know like
there's I'm a brother I'm a you know
there's so many things that I get to be
that's why you I was gonna what's the
hardest what's the hardest web page
you've ever written sales pages sales
pages and it's because you've created
the thing right yeah I'll bet to the
other one that was the hardest thing for
you to write was your about page oh
that's true
yeah the about page is so hard for
people because how you do mind her so
how do you define yourself right bio bio
is a special so so I'll give everyone a
trick and you can swipe this off of the
top of my about page we actually just
went through a bit of a brand redesign
so it might be switched out but enough
for the longest time it was out there
for a decade um my top my boat page was
you know hey thanks thanks for coming to
my web page and I get it you want to put
me in a box but here's one I tell you
just like you I'm a heck of a lot more
than a web page right and so below you
can read some bullet points about Who I
am personally professionally and maybe
that'll help shape whether or not you
want to hang around or not kind of thing
thanks for stopping by and then below
that was like personally you know I'm a
massive root beer lover you know I'm a
dyslexic you know I grew up on a farm
and ranch in Western Canada live in New
York City professionally spoken on
thousands of stages did a speech with my
fly down as well like you know like all
these things I mean I think it would
help people if they just if you just
realize that no like we have multiple
fields and which means you can have
multiple selves that are custom-built to
help you win out they're so healthy for
you to think that way and I think a key
thing is not necessarily allowing others
to define you know as the media they
want to define you as your the peak
performance coach or Tony Robbins is a
motivational speaker or your this or
that yeah but there's so much more than
that but they kind of want that label I
know for me I when I was younger in high
school people would tell me that I was
shy oh so quiet and I allowed that their
opinion their definition to define me
rather than me to find myself yeah and
not allowing that to limit me it's
fascinating so it's almost what you're
saying is they have a belief that
they're the best it's like an over
confidence and let me ask you where does
that come from is it their work ethic is
it yeah there's certain mental things
they do to kind of get themselves to
have that belief in themselves well I
mean it's it's not delusions of
it's like you know you can't have that
and and then not do the actual practice
and work right so that comes from
closing feedback loops seeing how well
you do with other people or you know you
are anyone forces that belief you know
the amount of work and effort that you
put into it helps you develop that
that's another thing and you know it
just it just grows and grows over time
now there's a lot of people that have
come across that could easily be the
best in the world that their craft but
there is some sort of they've they've
they've kind of sort of put themselves
some Sun rung on the ladder below
someone else they're like yeah I'm good
but I'm not as good as that person or
that you know that person has this
benefit to three inches taller than me
or whatever and you know they're just
all they're doing is they're just
chopping down their own tree you know
and diminishing their own confidence you
know that's and that's not the only
thing that's a it's a common thing I'll
say another one is is a constant up
leveling of the people around them
understanding that allies having great
quality people around you is only going
to help serve you going forward like I
mean I was the stupidest thing that I
did early on it was I did the whole lot
I'm gonna climb to the top of the
mountain on my own and plant that flag
up there so I did it I can tell everyone
else that I did it and it was arrogant
and but as stupid and was slow and then
it wasn't until I you know got into
mentorship at a young age I managed to
find a mentors at young ages at a young
age and and I was like oh wow this is so
much easier and it's so much more
enjoyable to be able to pick up the
phone and call someone who has already
done it and is like the master of the
craft like Harvey Dorfman was my mentor
ease the known as the Yoda of baseball
one of the greatest mental game coaches
ever wrote the Bible of the you know the
industry and I tucked myself under his
wing and you know I did it for 33 days
and you know again now then he started
passing me Pro clients immediately and
it was gonna take me a lot longer to go
and find that plus I got to see him work
with some of the biggest pros of all
time
sit in with him and like oh wow that's
actually what their big issues are not
even the stuff that's on the field it's
like the 80% that sits outside the field
that affects it like you think about you
know yourself and myself or the people
here you know you think about how you're
performing in your day and the stuff
that distracts you I'll bet it has very
little to do with the actual activity of
your business it has a lot to do with
you know family or girlfriends or
boyfriends or parents or siblings right
like all that stuff ends up seeping in
which then you know pulls you away from
achieving you know well on that field so
I got to see that really quickly in
first hand so the idea that you want to
find and be around and get around as
many great high quality people and
constantly level it up it's so powerful
you've seen it I mean I've I've been
lucky enough to see you grow you know
into your you know business over the
last six seven years or whatever and
it's it's been crazy
so is it surrounding yourself with
people that are further ahead than you
those most more successful or those that
challenge you yeah I mean all of those
things when I was leaving when I was
leaving the farm my mom said to me
because she didn't knew that I was gonna
become a farm kid or I was gonna become
taking over the farm or anything that
was for my brothers there's gonna go off
and travel the world and do my stuff but
you know she always said you know
whatever you want to go do just find
whoever's the best at it and go learn
from them and so I've always had that as
the way that a how I choose the vendors
and suppliers and partners that we work
with or and so that's what I did with
with Harvey and reaching out to Harvey
and working with him but yeah I'm not
and it's not always we're looking at it
in the context of you know how many
zeros you have behind you're like
because you just want to be around good
quality character rich people that are
fun as well possibly and you know
challenge you are honest or truthful and
you know again maybe you can't get that
right away but you continue to develop
that over time and you know now a sudden
you're surrounded with just this
fantastic group of allies and then the
the key here though and this is actually
I know that this is an idea that
resonate
with a lot of people we understand that
having amazing allies and mentors and
friends and you know people to help us
is so important and that's on the
external but what are you doing on the
internal right and and the alter ego
effect and the alter ego itself the root
of that was first penned in a letter
from Cicero the great Roman philosopher
and statesman in 44 BC to a friend and
he said the the alter ego is the other I
or trusted friend and it becomes the
ally that you bring in between the sixth
sense of yours to help you go and do
right if we already know that those
allies out there help us go and do what
are with the allies you bring internally
the ally that you create for yourself to
help you be a great dad or to great be a
great have a great relationship with
that's significant other or to be a
great leader in your business because
maybe you started off your business and
you use that challenge or personality to
help you get there but now you know
you're leveling up and you got team
around you now you got to step into and
evolve into a new role possibly yeah
I've noticed by surrounding myself with
certain people you also sort of take on
a bit of who they are yeah their
personality traits even when you consume
content you know when you read books
you're taking in their belief systems
their mindset their habits and you kind
of take a piece of that and you that
becomes a part of you yeah you know what
you just said is so important and
actually that's why you know for you
you've evolved so much faster than other
people because you write a lot and and
it's so valuable if you're someone who
only consumes other people's ideas and
all you do is read other people's books
now I definitely want you to read a book
but just one book it's a yellow book and
it's got no right here yes yeah but if
you only consumed other people's ideas
on leadership or you know sales or
mindfulness or like whatever the topic
is and you never stop to put pen to
paper and ask yourself the question what
are my thoughts about leadership what am
i thoughts about what it means to be a
great leader you need to put that stuff
down so that you can start to actually
coagulate those ideas and help help it
all resolved with your viewpoint on
and then what's great is when you do
that you can go back and you can read
what you wrote five years are going to
go wow that's what I thought about
leadership back then and now you've just
done something so powerful because we
all understand that photos help you see
growth but if you don't think about
those paradigms that you live through
and you don't ask yourself what you
think about them then it's hard to see
the mental emotional growth and
intellectual growth that you've had over
the last five years like it's it's cool
for me to go back and look at the
journals that I've written you know two
decades ago even now and I'm 43 now and
looking back you see what I was like at
23 I'm like wow that's what you like no
wonder you struggled with that right and
then I think now like what's what am I
gonna say about myself at 43 when I'm 53
is like wow that was an interesting way
that you thought about stuff so yeah and
I mean and you because you do that so
often you're able to like you're like
because even when you write something I
don't if you do this I mean I did that
when I was writing that book it's like
you look at it and I was like it's not
really what I think though because you
just got it out and you're like you're
going back and like I don't like how
that's that's not quite the
representation yeah so got it now I'm
glad you brought up mentorship you been
influenced a lot by Jim Rohn
you mind sharing a little bit with
people your experience with him yeah I
mean well a I met him at a construction
Person of the Year event event in Banff
Alberta Canada my uncle was getting an
award and I sat next to him didn't know
who he was I was young and you know
asking me all these questions I just won
this like restaurant award and just was
like it what he gonna do and just ask me
a question that people didn't ask me
about like what do you wanna do with
your life kind of questions like that
goals and stuff and I mean I I was doing
all the talking because you know he was
doing all the question asking and I was
like oh so like you know are you getting
an award tonight too and he was like ah
I'm actually the the keynote speaker on
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