SEO Experiments with Kyle Roof #Best Education Page #Online Earning

hey what's going on welcome to the Doug

show and in this episode I talked to

Kyle roof Kyle if you haven't heard of

him is a pretty badass SEO and we have

that in common of course because I enjoy

SEO myself but he also likes drink

alcohol which I enjoy beer he shares his

favorite drink and then after a few

minutes we realized that we need to talk

about SEO and stuff that other people

care about maybe we should have saved

that for the tail end of the interview

but either way it was a good way to kick

off our friendship and I think Kyle is

doing some very interesting things you

see Kyle has two very interesting

projects at least two that I'm super

interested in so one is around running

SEO experiments and he's been doing it

for several years he goes into the

methodology and explains how he like

test a theory and gets actual data so

that it's pretty much like unarguable

like his conclusions are amazing so the

way he runs tests super cool if nothing

else if you get nothing else out of the

interview that alone will give you new

insight on how you can test things and

just how you can understand how

algorithms work in a general sense so we

talk about that and then the other

project is page optimizer pro or pop

which is a analysis tool for content and

it helps you nail your on-page SEO

around keyword density LSI keywords and

other details like that so this was a

very fun interview I didn't realize Kyle

and Eric we're gonna have so much to

talk about and I'm looking forward to

like working with them in the future and

just hearing about his projects so

without further ado let's hear from Kyle

right now hey what's going on it's Doug

Huntington here and I'm sitting with

Kyle roof how are you today I'm great

thanks Doug it's a pleasure to have you

on we were just chatting beforehand and

of course we have some SEO you know

obsessiveness that's common but

apparently we also enjoy alcohol so what

is

a drink of choice my poison along with

Janis Joplin is a Southern Comfort and

I'll usually drink

SoCo and diet is a go-to but it's a hard

thing because a lot of places don't have

it so I have to ask you have SoCo and

then they do those hem and haw and they

don't have it then I go for a captain

morgans or a Sailor Jerry's that kind of

a thing okay okay yeah I enjoy I'm

mostly a beer person but I you know like

many other people that enjoy alcohol its

whatever is in front of me and like

maybe the weather you know if it's a

sunny day by the pool like I may not

want to have whiskey like maybe that's a

even Coors Light you know I'm in the

Boulder Colorado area so you know

there's a lot of beer around here and

course lights just you know air Coors is

just down the street and golden so

that's the perfect recovery drink you

know it's like people want to go for

like Bloody Mary's give me a Coors Light

like 11:00 a.m. yeah I mean a couple

those will get you're right yeah I mean

when you got a hydrate

like that is what you need to do is

basically water its water with a little

okay but um are you like one of those

guys that gets into like IPAs or this

level of bitterness or that is that your

your focus yeah I got really into that

so I did some home brewing and like

really dove in headfirst I wish I

literally that actually seems fine now

that I'm saying it out loud but yeah I

got into home brewing and all sorts of

beers really love Belgian beers and

became a beer judge and blah blah blah

so I took that to the extreme as well so

the only fancy be right thing I get into

is uh this is my humble brag where I get

to travel to Europe a lot but in Germany

and Bavaria they've got a hell's

h-e-l-l-o yes and I think that is the

pinnacle of beard um it isn't a very

good hell's yes I enjoy those too

you know I like all sorts of beer so

even like I actually have some in the

refrigerator so a couple helis from

local around here so I know people are

here for SEO so I will transition

quickly to so aside from you know

Southern Comfort and some other you know

darker liquors can you give your can you

give an introduction so pee

well can get to know you a little bit

here sure my name is Kyla roof the name

of the agency that I co-founded is

high-voltage SEO now we do local to

national international did everything

else in between I I'm at the office in

Phoenix Arizona we also have an office

in Berlin we have an office in Melbourne

we have about 16 clients excuse me 16

employees about 70 clients I am the lead

tester for s ia which is a testing group

where I oversee and publish single

mostly single variable tests on Google's

algorithm and then I'm also the math and

co-creator of page optimizer pro which

is an on-page evaluation tool cool and I

just started using page optimizer pro

recently pretty slick and you know we'll

talk about that probably a little bit

more I may have some questions for you

all right

but how did you get into SEO as I was

doing a research I saw that you have a

diverse background and even a law degree

so can you tell me how you found your

way into this area it was a finding the

same path that everybody takes that a to

be right I started as a trial attorney

and I did divorce custody and support

and criminal defense and I actually

hated it so I I decided to take a year

off and I moved to South Korea which i

think is what most people do when they

want to take a year off and that one

year off turned into five and while

there I opened a business in Korea and

we needed a website and I had done some

website building in college just kind of

for fun and kind of got back into it and

it took a while because those site that

we built for the company was kind of

complex and took me a while to kind of

assemble a team and I realized oh hey I

could actually just our general

contracting websites because I've got

the solid team I brought my brother

involved into the company and then we

realized you know you got all these guys

in India hope we just moved to India and

open a company they're looking like

watch them and we'll get more work done

and the prices will be better or costs

be lower because we're not paying

freelancers so he did that and then the

real short version is we got raided by

the police my brother got thrown in jail

they shut down our company and in India

and so my brother who does web design of

development said okay I can take these

four clients and service them because we

lost our employees right they didn't

want

they don't want to they didn't need to

be involved in that scene with the

police right so we're just hemorrhaging

clients he said I can take these four

and we had just started doing SEO and I

had invested my last penny into this

company and I realized that I needed to

learn SEO right then and there to

service those SEO clients so I could pay

the rent next month and and that's

literally what I did like right then and

there I was like I need to figure out

this SEO thing and and did it it was

like a make or break situation crazy so

what like what year was that when you

went to South Korea I went to South

Korea in 2008 and then started doing the

this kind of work on the side if you

will

2010 or so and then the India debacle

was 2012 or 2013 okay Wow so that's

really not that long ago in terms of SEO

or in terms of a career yeah it's not

that not that long ago at all but when

you have to learn SEO immediately it

really accelerates your your path then

that's what got me into testing I

realized you know when like hey is this

a ranking factor and you get three

answers that say yes and three they say

no and three very learned answers that

say maybe and I was like well I think I

need to figure this out on my own and

and that's what I did through kind of

refining the testing process of setting

up test environments to see if something

is or is not a ranking factor or

something here is not true anything I've

Rana do well as well as you know you get

a recipe of 50 things and you're like do

I really have to do all 50 you know what

really in here is is making things

happen and so it was really just an

economy of time trying to cut through

when you do or don't have to do and then

that's what that's really an accelerated

me into being I guess an SEO expert and

that and that's really just being able

to kind of cut through that annoys

through through testing models and stuff

like that okay

into your knowledge like was there

anyone else or is there or do you have

competitors like doing tests like this

in any sort of public fashion at all

obviously it's very expensive and

difficult to do there are a few other

people that are doing it um when I

started though I didn't know that and

the testing that I put together was an

independent thought

since then I've had people to want to

yell at me and say like I didn't invent

science and I understand that you know I

I didn't invent SEO testing like I don't

want to make that claim but the the

method that I put together I

independently put together I didn't know

anybody else's just I haven't seen

anybody else's test I have since seen

some and and there are several guys

they're doing a great job with it but

there they are few and far between

because it's not easy to do and it's not

easy to conceptualize that's kind of the

bigger problem is that when you're

looking at Google's algorithm and it's

so vast how do you how do you actually

run a single variable test or how can

you actually put your finger on this is

what that thing is and so that's kind of

a log a lot part of the process of kind

of being able to think about things the

right way I'm putting it together in the

right framework cool and it's funny

because I often complain about this you

know people will ask you know how long

does it take for I will ask you a lot of

these questions in a rapid-fire section

here in a second but like people will

ask about certain pieces like will this

link help or how long does it take for

this link to do anything that sort of

thing and a lot of times I'm like you

know what it's so hard for us just in a

real-world scenario because there's like

so many variables involved and many of

them are external anyway and you can't

even control them so can you talk about

the approach that you take and I imagine

with your you know logical mind in your

law degree like you were able to come at

it at a different angle than you know

the general sort of SEO person that has

found their way into it so can you just

talk about your approach sure the most

simple way to look at it would be you

you optimize for a word that doesn't

exist then you've created an environment

that only you control you know nobody

else is in there so you're immediately

eliminating all those extra variables

and then in the most simple setup you'll

create five pages on the same domain

that are exactly the same and you'll

index them all and then on the number-3

page you'll change one thing now we're

down to one single variable people asked

like what about duplicate content well

if there is a duplicate content penalty

it's now applied to all five the same

anything

it was maybe there's a penalty on that

domain it's now been applied to all five

pages the same the only obviously you

need a unique URL so what I'll do is

I'll put the keyword as close to the

dot-com as I can and then a random

letter strings so - letter letter letter

- letter literally and that gives you a

unique URL but otherwise the the pages

are gonna be identical and then from

there if you change one thing you've got

it down to one variable so if you want

to say is the h1 or ranking factor so

you would put in one h1 on say number

three you containing the target keyword

and as you'll see it go up and you know

that's a positive factor you'll then

want to run that multiple times you want

to get you want to replicate these tests

and if you can do something four times -

five times in a row you're inside of or

just outside of statistical significance

but one big thing to think about is

they're running it in the inverse so

that the first time we put it on the

number three and we saw it go up when

when you run in the inverse you'll put

it on the one two four and five and then

the three should drop because you've run

the test the other way and that's how we

get to real confidence in what we're

doing because you know people talk like

Google could be tricking you or some of

that they can't tricky in the inverse

you know they can't run it you can't run

something and get get a repeatable

result in the positive and then also get

it in the negative and then once you've

got that then you feel pretty strongly

about that yes this is or is not a ring

exactly wow that's like dangerously

simple right like not easy to implement

I imagine but like that's so clear now

why do you have five pages instead of

just two because there is the chance

that if you launch - it could just go

one way or the other you know with by

having a larger set and a lot of the

tests will run now or even larger than

the five you want to be able to see some

movement you know whether that's gonna

be positive or negative movement and

then you don't always the thing too is

you don't always get something that's

gonna shoot all the way to the top or

all the way to the bottom you know there

is a bit of I think score normalization

is actually a good description of what

happens so these things are ranked and

then there's a normalized score and so

you might not get above that normalized

score with whatever factor you're

looking at so you know that you want to

see you want to gauge how much

you can actually get okay interesting

and then for like your standard testing

procedure you mentioned getting to be

able to repeat it so you're applying the

scientific method and it all seems great

right so how often do you try and repeat

it is it that four to five times just so

that you're like alright this seems

pretty legit yeah because if you had a

coin flip you know a coin flip is 50/50

but a repeatable coin flip how many

times can you get heads in a row if you

did four times in a row it's about 6%

are your chances of getting four heads

in a row you know and statistical

significance is at 5% so when you're at

that repeatable thing of four or five

times you're basically inside of a

statistical probability where we feel

good about yeah we're seeing this

because it's unlikely you're gonna get

the same result that many times in a row

but then when you're under than the

universe you have the same result then

we feel very very confident and the and

what we're looking at okay very cool and

I know you probably have some

interesting results where maybe

something counterintuitive happened is

there an any particular one that comes

to mind where you're like oh we were

shocked when we did this test and blah

blah blah well one that's a you know

what's really interesting about it is is

the best results you get are the ones

they aren't expecting and the other

thing too is I don't have a narrative

with my tests I don't I am agnostic to

the result you know it's the result for

the result I think where maybe some

people get in trouble is getting married

to the result because then it fits maybe

a course that they're selling alright

yeah and then you get that confirmation

bias towards those sorts of things but I

think if you can take your pride out of

the situation and just look at what the

result is then you can see a bad result

for the good result that it actually is

cuz it led you to another discovery it's

kind of funny with just running a test

in with some people in our group

somebody that mentor and it was just

putting just a male on the page you know

is this a positive or negative actor and

what's interesting is it keeps demoting

the page so now I know that can't be a

negative factor right so there's

something else going on there and so now

we're in the process

what could that other thing be what is

actually happening on this page you know

is it we're adding some extra code is it

that it's not a real email address is it

so like now well now we're playing with

those things so this is a fluid

situation that's going on at this moment

because we're like that's a really weird

result is it just an anomaly which it

very well could be so now we have to

rerun it see if we get the same anomaly

and then start to hypothesize about

where things may or may not have gone

wrong or if you will right and then we

can then then we make some real

discoveries about what's going on at the

algorithm interesting yeah you probably

run across this too Kyle where someone

does one thing once and then they assume

that that is the way it is a hundred

percent of the time and they go around

maybe in facebook groups for example and

just like keep spreading around these

sort of rumors so yeah it's very just to

put a pin in it like everyone just an

end of one isn't very useful you have to

be able to repeat it other people should

be able to repeat it and I love the

rigorous fashion that you guys are

testing and like I guess learning right

I mean it's the only way and like you

said you're you're agnostic to the

results like it's just this is what

happened when we did X and the results

speak for themselves

yeah you don't need to get angry of me

for the result you know just get angry

at the result but then we can discuss it

too and the other thing is being able to

show the testing method this is how this

was tested so maybe there's a flaw in

the method and there are a lot of sharp

people that can then review this and say

hey did you think consider this or what

do you think of that and often I'll be

like hey I did not think of that that's

a great idea and then let's let's run it

back through actually what I often say

to people's like can you run this and

then let's look at your results and they

they that's as far as they go yeah

because it's it's not it's it's

difficult to set up it's time-consuming

it's frustrating at times and all you

will just don't want to do it so how are

you at a test run like what's the

typical time frame well so like you're

looking at like an on page sort of thing

what's funny is you can get results

within minutes you know when you reindex

the pages are used to resubmit them to

say the search console you can often see

it especially for stronger signals stuff

within 10 15 20 minutes which is

remarkable usually though if we're

looking

we're like hey we're not getting any

move in here you you want to look at it

this is real life anyway about maybe two

cache dates which is usually maybe five

to seven days when cache is working

properly

so maybe 14 days with imp we don't get

movement then we might move on in and on

page sense but like you're talking about

with off page with links the real

frustrating thing is even in these small

environments it can take weeks upon

weeks to three weeks six eight weeks

I've seen those in test environments

where it just takes that long for a link

to pass any kind of juice even within

such a small controlled area so link

links take forever gotcha and that's

been my observation over time as well

where it used to be you know even 2013

when it sounds like you were getting

into like SEO deep is that is that right

2013 yeah okay yeah it would be a

full-time gig yeah right and it was like

two or three days and you could see like

what links helped you can adjust anchor

text and it was like pretty powerful to

have that knowledge now it's my hunch

and you can confirm or you know disagree

like Google throttled it back so we

don't know what we're doing with all

these variables we don't know what

helped rankings or hurt rankings so we

can't exploit things as well as

marketers so is that kind of you should

also think that things just got bigger

you know there's more to crawl since

then exponentially more and it just

might take more time it is another

possibility yeah you know so like there

are times where I think when there's

like the the folia stuff that Google

brings into play and but I think a lot

of it is is serendipity for them just

like oh we didn't realize that that

would happen because it would take so

long but that's great you know it's a

built-in thing because it just it takes

that long to process those URLs yeah

where they hit in the queue and then

that turns into this much time now and

now it looks like they turn to gauge

when really it was just us things got

bigger you know so far sigh I never I

never thought of that but yeah that

would be a great way a great side

benefit there so you mentioned like 2 to

3 weeks and some up to 6 to 8 weeks for

a link to show its impact

even in these very controlled

environments for bogus words that don't

even exist and stuff like that so is

that kind of like the max range that

you've seen or could it extend out like

six months or something well it could

the prom Leon into is that these pages

are susceptible to updates and then when

an update happens because they are

identical you can actually see them

shift and so you are susceptible to

those changes in a broad core update

which is actually way to see if a core

update has actually happened because you

can see your unused test pages move

which is actually kind of fun so like

you run into those obstacles where if

you let it sit that long it is possible

that it just what you saw isn't actually

the link to anything or whatever you

were playing to anything it was just an

update that happened which then gets

into the real frustrating thing when

you're doing links you want to replicate

them you know and it's something that

takes four weeks that's a long time to

get something replicated again

especially like on test two like you

really like oh my god I've a let's date

then there went eight weeks of wire yeah

not test you you guys have going like

concurrently well I try to I published

ten a month right now that's gonna

change shortly but to do that you have

figure like two to three per one that it

it actually makes it publish worthy it's

kind of where a so let's say and then

the stuff that I published is within a

group as well so there's they're people

that help me they're running their own

tests which is actually great because

you redo your run out of ideas you know

they're the things that I care about and

those are the things that I test and

then I just don't have the ideas cuz

there are things I don't care about

they're like oh I never thought of them

so there's a group that that we work on

these tests together and so I I would

say minimum twenty to thirty tests are

running at any time okay

wow wow wow that's crazy just knowing

the effort that it takes me man time and

all that stuff so very interesting now

like all good internet marketers I

imagine maybe you bumped into some

penalties at some point do you have any

good

Google penalty stories well sure the the

most famous one is when the site that I

built in lorem ipsum and was ranking and

then it got published in a search engine

journal and it was D index six hours

later pure spam but what was the the

next part of that though is that that

night when I woke up the next morning

between like 115 and 127 a.m. I think

was like 22 of my test sites redeemed X

and these sites weren't linking to that

to that competition site they were all

on their own and it was just purely

punitive so what I did was actually the

reconsideration requests on the site

they got shut down so the first one I

wrote back and I was like hey this site

is not optimized for any keywords that

anybody else is optimizing for or

bidding on in Adwords it cannot be spam

because it's not filling up any space

they did somebody else once and they

denied that so then I took the whole

site down and just left the 2012

template up and reconsidered and they

denied that and then I put up one page

it was just a paragraph that said this

is my personal site this is clearly

unique contents as I'm writing this one

paragraph right now just

stream-of-consciousness

you know this can't be anywhere else on

the Internet and I did that and they

denied it as well so then I realized

that was just punitive at that point

they were they were specifically taking

down my sites for I guess punishment for

showing how the algorithm arcs into the

other side so like were they in the same

because like I had a penalty and it was

a similar thing where one one site I was

doing something wrong and then

everything else in my you know I had

them all on the same search console area

which I know that's an easy way to link

them up so in that case were they in the

same like analytics zone or something

like that so they there were some

crosses here and there but I mean they

were all on different IPS they all had

one of five different hosts that I use

some had domain privacy some didn't some

had GA some didn't some were in the same

search console but most weren't

because most have their own Gmail so

they were all pretty spread out and they

really with HAMP looks at a couple

linked to each other just for some test

purposes but otherwise they were

separated so I don't really know I think

it was probably the registrar level

because they all were registered in the

same spot and I know that Google clearly

has access to that information sure and

I think they could just look at all my

domains and said of this let's knock out

these 20 that's my best guess

oh man that's a there's a bummer yeah

yeah that's a cool story just in general

Google the spam team they read search

engine journal I guess oh yeah

they also I always have a good time

thinking that there's some schlub in

Mountain View and his job for two days

with me as he's just typing away trying

to figure out my stuff that's pretty

funny and do you just carry like

imagining that like do you have any if

you if you can't answer this okay do you

know anyone like in Google or anything

like that you know no I don't know

anyone so I think they know me they know

of you so as far as like like other gray

hat activities and stuff like that are

there certain things that are actually I

don't know dude you any gray house stuff

or can you mention that or like what's

your approach like whatever works and

what's effective or well I don't really

know what what is black or white or gray

I guess that kind of depends on what you

think it is

sure like earlier with like the person

that himself not you but the editorial

at you you know it's more of a personal

choice on which one I do but you know I

still think on page does most of the

heavy lifting and that's where my focus

is going to be and building good

internal link structure on your own site

and I don't think unless you're cloaking

stuff I don't really think there's a way

to do black on page I mean if you're

presenting the words these are the words

and you're allowed to link between pages

in your own sites so that's the majority

of what I do and that that gets me I

think a long way you know in our agency

we do have a full time

builder we are looking for PR

opportunities if you like the word PR

you don't like that word then guest

posts looking for opportunities to get

client names out there and on the web

and stuff like that and so depending on

where you think that it's the scales is

where we are okay cool yeah I mean I run

across people who they're like well if

you're doing guest post even if they're

like legit like good great sites they're

like well if you're doing it for the

link you know if that's your intention

internally but like exactly you're

trying to do but what if I just want to

get the name of my company out and they

wank

right yeah so it's it's definitely you

know what if I convinced myself that

that's what I really want

yeah I just want to do some promotion so

okay that's cool too to get out of the

way and four on page so I am very

interested in the internal link building

sort of principles that you adopt there

was a stretch where I was like maybe

these silos are really important and

what it took away from it is the

intentional linking is really good but

maybe not necessarily the you know page

parent-child structure maybe that's not

so important but maybe it's just the

internal linking so what what's your

approach in what can you share yeah sure

so I don't do physical silence as you

just described a parent/child because it

is a physical silo I will do a virtual

silo and in that sense you know the URL

structure doesn't really matter it's the

links they're putting in the body so

I'll have my target page and then I'm

gonna pick out pages on the site that

are relevant to that and intentionally

link from those supporting pages or post

and it doesn't matter what they are -

your target page and then they're only

gonna link to each other in the body as

well that's also a very intentional

choice that you're supporting for one

silo these are my supporting pages they

all link to each other and they link to

this target page but they don't link

anywhere else and so I'm making a very

conscious choice that these things are

related to that and what I'll often do

within those supporting pages are post

as we're looking at

questions from like people also ask

answer the public niche forums because

if somebody's put that question out

there it's it's it's information they

want about your thing

and so you can answer that question

often you can win those terms just by

putting them in the h1 and the meta

title as the question you know an

example that I give you know if you're

selling we have a New Zealand Ski

Package thing that we used to do you

know what's the weather like in New

Zealand in August you know that's that's

so that's the kind of question that

people are asking and then we can write

a post about it and it's just good

information and then people actually

like to link to it because you're just

providing good information but now what

they don't know is that that's part of

my silo so it's linking to my target

page and slinking to my other supporting

pages and the whole silo juices itself

up through that type of Irish you know

if you want do an infographic you want

to do a YouTube whatever those all get

embedded into your silo as you're

supporting content so when people then

link to it or they get a source

attributed its sourcing into your silo

and they don't have to worry about

getting links directly to your target

page because if you're trying to get

links to a target page where you're

selling a product or a service nobody's

gonna want to link to that now why would

they but they will link to an

infographic that has great information

that will link to what is the weather

like you know though they will link to

information on prices or normal things

for whatever your niches and that's all

the information they can go into your

site on okay so that's that's how I put

perfect there's great information mine

was more haphazard so it's it's good to

know that approach now for like a

cluster of content we'll call it that

the term you use is that that's just

fine we go on supporting pages or post

but it is it relevant things to your

target to your target page okay it's not

like but not using that keyword again

and again though so like whatever your

target keyword is that that's on your

main page that's what you've optimized

that page for these are the questions

that people would ask are round to that

okay so it's like the same audience

would be interested in all of those that

sort of idea okay that's right and then

the internal links that you're doing

between those say supporting pages or

posts just could look like will be a

next or previous you know to the user

because this is more information they

might be interested in perfect and is

there sort of a minimum

number of those supporting articles that

you would go for I assume there's no

maximum if you want at times but we

always like to look at in terms of

groupings of three to three to five you

know if you're doing projects on a

monthly basis you know that's a that's a

number that's manageable okay often so

something in there so we'll try to do in

kind of those little groupings as we're

building out a campaign for a client

okay and then as far as other internal

links going to those supporting pages or

even the page which you're trying to

rank how do you approach like those

links so for the silos I'm trying to be

very intentional like you know these

supporting pages are only linking to

this target page within the body the

menu in the footer that's that's fine

that's normal website stuff but those

intentional links the only time I would

really link to another say supporting

post or page would be you know what

that's actually now turned into a

top-level page it's turned into its own

primary that might not have been what we

were building out initially but no man

that really that actually turns out to

be getting a lot of traffic so then we

have to might build a silo for it you

know and then it gets its own supporting

pages and internal linking of some of

them got it okay super interesting

um and then I assume was this one of the

tests that you like executed or did you

develop it and then just saw that it

worked like pretty readily and you're

like right this this was one of the

things where you're like hey this seems

to be working let's see if we can refine

it in the test environment and so

refining internal link methods you know

for for what we're trying to accomplish

and that that's that's kind of them

woods come out to the the silos that we

use in our agency all right and then as

far as and I'm not sure if you would

know this right off the top of your head

but like if like I guess how how how

much less effective would it be if you

have some other links like going out to

other posts and you don't silo it so

well

well there's link you know leakage you

know so like if you have a particular

page and it's linking to five things

that you are diluting that the the link

that the juice did it could be passing

so that's what we're trying to do is

we're trying to say hey this is relevant

content so when Google comes in

rolls and he gets into the silo where

it's going is just into relevancy you

know so if I'm linking out you know the

example that I used to teach is like

from our name page about how to make

tacos you know I might have hardshell

tacos and soft shell tacos but then as

soon as I start talking about enchiladas

like that's a whole lot of thing you

know hund it shouldn't be on that page

and that'd be the same thing too for

your supporting articles and where

you're linking out you know you should

be linking to stuff about how to make

tacos not how to then roll it enchilada

or something like that you know I mean

like so you you like cluster so the link

you just should make sense in your site

which whichever way they're going and

you can almost create silos and you can

repurpose content that already exists on

their site into these silos so you don't

have to necessarily make brand new

content it's just being conscious about

how you're linking to to relevant things

within your own site gotcha gotcha that

makes total sense I definitely need to

clean up a few things cuz I have some I

would say haphazard at best like the

links just going out all over the place

so if and I'm not sure if there's a good

way to answer this question but like if

someone doesn't really have much of an

internal link structure I will often

just tell them hey just link everywhere

like it's probably gonna help things

since you have nothing in place but and

just take a shotgun approach yeah like

just yeah you might get lucky

yeah but like what's sort of an impact

like could someone expect if they like

focus and they maybe they do have

existing content they just didn't link

it together and they have supporting

content and they didn't do any

intentional linking what kind of impact

can someone expect well in the when we

started doing this we had a client 2015

2014 they were in one of those niches

where they're there's like 10 clicks and

if we can get a hold of one of those

clicks that could be millions of dollars

and they had like 4 years of blog

content it was just fantastic I mean

just these beautifully written pieces

just really really well done but they

like most people just had and sitting in

the blog you know doing nothing so they

had 10 let's call them 10 like target

pages you know for the different

categories of things their services that

they sold so we just went through and

repurpose

the existing things okay these 5 gonna

link to that page and these 7 are going

to that one of these two over here

because it just made sense there that's

what they were writing about but we took

them from you know page 5 plus to page 1

and 2 for all their target pages in a

matter of weeks just by redoing those

internal links they then fired us

because we didn't do anything

well you got us to page 1 but you didn't

do anything like what are you talking

about we we put this whole thing

together yeah but yeah what was great

too is their site had you know whatever

metric you liked their da MPAs were ones

or zeros or TF CS or zeros I don't think

we're using a truss at the time but you

know like all their metrics are nothing

this was just the internal link juice

passage between between their site and

and putting just relevant little silos

together ok interesting that's amazing

yeah I really need to get on it so four

months this is like a mini little

consulting thing for me because I can

just ask questions about myself supplier

way well Rick you didn't know that Kyle

so wait does it seem to be recorded like

I imagine like most things that seem

overwhelming you just have to take a

bite-sized piece and you know eat the

elephant or whatever so let's say I have

like 200 blog posts and it's kind of not

categorized well and I need to go

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